Done Deal

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
For paullud, re: What the Bush Administration "did", from the article "Four Emerging Myths About the Iran, P5+1 Deal":

3. The historic deal only materialized because of crippling economic sanctions. This ignores the record. Iran offered the U.S. an even better deal back in 2003 and they were rebuffed by a recalcitrant Bush administration who chose to isolate and sanction Iran instead of respond to diplomacy. In response to increasing U.S. sanctions, Iran’s enrichment program expanded and intensified. In 2003, Iran had 164 centrifuges operating and no 20% enriched uranium. After a decade of escalating sanctions, in 2013 Iran had 19,000 centrifuges and a sizable stockpile of 20% uranium. Only when Rouhani was elected and Iran was engaged in secret negotiations with Washington with the prospects of peaceful compromise on the horizon did Iran halt its installation of new centrifuges and put enrichment on hold.

Four Emerging Myths About the Iran, P5+1 Deal

Bush Administration =

... snatching defeat from the jaws of victory ...
 
Last edited:

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Hard to imagine he would try to achieve it by showing her up ... ;)

From what I can gather, it seems like there might be some differences between their respective FP outlooks ...

True but it is politics.;)
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Correct but the word of a liar, terrorist, and extremist has no value ...
Behold what, through nationality and complicity, thou art:

A willful invasion of Iraq based on willfully told lies: State terrorism.

Reckless campaign of drone bombing across Mideast: State terrorism

Assisting Saddam’s war with Iran while knowing he was using chemicals: State terrorism.

Overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953: State terrorism.

Subsidizing various Israeli attacks on Lebanon, Gaza…..etc etc.
 

witness23

Veteran Expediter
Why are you surprised about any of it? It's true. GOP legislators are easily distracted and have the attention span of a oh look, chocolate milk!

When I read your, "Obamacare, what's that?" comment I thought you were jumping on the Right Wing bandwagon and were insinuating that this whole Iran thing was an attempt by the administration to distract the media and the electorate from the ACA rollout.

I really haven't seen any of the GOP legislators giving up on talking about Obamacare. Actually, I've seen and heard more about the agreement with Iran as an opportunity to minimize the situation and the President by accusing him of attempting to change the subject away from Obamacare. It's a huge conspiracy don't 'chya know.

Here are just a few examples of what I'm talking about and why I thought you were attempting the same thing by that comment:

John Cornyn: Iran deal designed to ‘distract attention’ from health-care

McCarthy Hopes Obama Didn't Hatch Iran Deal To Distract From Obamacare

Did Obama Make an Iranian Nuke Deal to Distract From ObamaCare?

Politics: I don't think we're going to let Obama change the subject

Steve Doocy: ‘Curious timing’ that Iran came ‘out of nowhere’ to distract from Obamacare

How Does Limbaugh Know Iranian Nuclear Deal Is Bad? ‘Obama Did It’
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Wow what a surprise
I will assume that your failure to respond to the specific, substantive points I raised in response to your previous posts either indicates complete assent on your part with what I pointed out ... or complete and total capitulation and surrender, due to being unable to come up with a reasoned, logical argument ...
 
Last edited:

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Got any more articles penned by thoroughly disgraced ***clowns ?

Daily Caller Editor Faked Personas To Dig Up Dirt on Liberals | Crooks and Liars

She recalled a particular incident in May 2010 when Gregory Davis posted a comment advocating violent action against Conklin Dairy—an Ohio farm that was the target of protests after animal rights campaigners released a video of a worker abusing livestock.

("Gregory Davis" was a pseudonym of David Martosko - the author of the article pallud links - and was admitted to be so under sworn oath by Martosko himself)
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
I will assume that your failure to respond to the specific, substantive points I raised in response to your previous posts either indicates complete assent on your part with what I pointed out ... or complete and total capitulation and surrender, due to being unable to come up with a reasoned, logical argument ...

Nope I said my piece and it is clear that there is no further reason to discuss it with you. There seems to be a miscommunication going on with us and quite frankly this whole "deal" is a waste of time because the US has no business getting involved so I am against it from the start.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using EO Forums mobile app
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
When I read your, "Obamacare, what's that?" comment I thought you were jumping on the Right Wing bandwagon and were insinuating that this whole Iran thing was an attempt by the administration to distract the media and the electorate from the ACA rollout.
Well, Obama certainly isn't above using misdirection and deflection to cover up his blundering of slight-of-hand tricks. He's had an unusually large number of opportunities these past 6 years to practice his craft - and he's very good at it. Almost without exception, every time there's been a domestic scandal, the scandal news has been quickly followed up by some kind of foreign policy news-breaker. It's gotten to the point where every time something happens, you sit back and wonder what he's going to come up with to deflect people attention away from it.

Considering the Iran thing began long before the Obamacare rollout, and it would have been impossible to predict the outcome of the Iran negotiations (despite it being perfectly clear now that they knew very well what the Obamacare rollout was going to be like), it's unlikely that the Iran negotiations, nor the timing of the results had anything whatsoever to do with Obamacare. However, like any good politician regardless of party affiliation, Obama isn't going to look a good gift horse in the mouth, and will take full advantage of the distraction.

The tail ain't waggin' the dog on this one, but by the same token Obama isn't going to grab the tail and tell the dog to stop waggin' it.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Never said I was an expert in Islam.
Actually you did when you said you had studied the Bible and Koran and then gave your conclusions. Then you said it again when you told me that I was incorrect about why Muhammad left Mecca and that I needed to do more in-depth research.

The most excepted way in America to spell the Koran is that way.
I really don't know about that, since I've never done, nor read, any research or polling on the subject. However, generally speaking, the most excepted way of spelling, phrasing or grammar usage can be found in the Stylebooks of the major press outlets, with the AP Stylebook both leading and reflecting usage in newsrooms across the country. For nearly 25years the AP Stylebook used "Koran" and "Mohammed" and the way of spelling. It's not because that's the most accepted way or even the correct way, but rather because it's all about spelling the words in such a manner that the reader can pronounce it in the same manner that it's said in Arabic. There are inherent problems of rendering written and spoken Arabic in the Latin script of English and other European languages.

For example, the symbols for Arabic phonemes (basic sound building blocks of words) that do not exist in English and other European languages need to be represented in some meaningful, phonetic way. Also, there needs to be a means of representing the Arabic definite article, which is always spelled the same way in written Arabic but has numerous pronunciations in the spoken language depending on context. In order to effectively transcribe (representing the sound of a language) Arabic into English, pseudo-phonetic spelling is used.

There are two ways to spell it. I use the Koran spelling.
I never said you were wrong in spelling it that way, only that if you had, in fact, studied the Quran like you claimed, then you wouldn't have spelled it that way.

In reality, there are far more than two ways to spell it. There are as many ways to spell it as there are to make it sound like it does when said in Arabic. Is it Cindy, or Sindy or Sindee or Cindee or Scindee? When spoken, they're all the same. So long as it's spelled in a manner that makes you say it the correct way, it's all good. As for the Koran, the most common Romanizations of the Arabic are: Koran, Coran, Quran, Qur'an. Those who are less ignorant of the text will use on of the two latter examples, or depending on context, will use al-Qurʼan or even
qurʼānahu. The word "quran" is mentioned in the Quran 70 times, spelled 3 different ways depending on the context used, because the context changes how it's pronounced.

Muslims don't like it spelled that way.
I suppose thinking such a thing might give comfort to someone who hates Muslims, or to a Christian doing the oh, so very Christian thing of intentionally trying to denigrate a fellow human being, but the reality is that Muslims couldn't care less how you spell it. How you pronounce it is what matters.

See what I did there? You now have a new task before you. Go forth into the wilderness and find ye the most incorrect pronunciation of the word Quran.

In to reading on the subject, some of the books I have read....
Have you actually read the Quran? From cover to cover? Actually read the book you are trying to study? Or are to merely content to stick with books and information which confirm and bolster your current beliefs, regardless of how biased or ignorant they may be? These are rhetorical questions you must ask in earnest of yourself.

I suggest you study the Quran carefully. And not in a manner that gives you even more reason to hate or despite them, but in a manner that allows to you understand Islam, and thus, Muslims. Know thine enemy as thyself.

Another fair warning... the better you understand the Quran and Islam, the better you are likely to understand the Bible and Christianity. That can be a double-edged sword. Can be quite the little paradoxical conundrum.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Dang ... I've used up my allocation of free articles for this month for the NYT ...

Here's some bitcoins. Go get more articles.
MW-BB425_bitcoi_20130412153531_MG.jpg
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Nope I said my piece and it is clear that there is no further reason to discuss it with you.
Ok.

I am curious though ... if you feel we, as a part of the international community, shouldn't be involved in reaching an agreement with Iran with regards to them upholding their obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, how do you see us, as a country, dealing with the issue ?

There seems to be a miscommunication going on with us
Well, I don't know if it's miscommunication per se ... maybe just a little difference of opinion in certain respects I think ...

and quite frankly this whole "deal" is a waste of time because the US has no business getting involved so I am against it from the start.
Well, surprisingly I somewhat tend to agree with you in this ...

But unfortunately the US is involved and has been ... at least as far back 1953 when we caused the democratically elected government of Iran to be overthrown via a coup ...

Now, we have traveled forward through time - demonstrating all manner of belligerent conduct and have refused - at least until now - to forego being a thug and a bully and embrace diplomacy.

Whether we are actually embracing real diplomacy still remains to be seen ... as those in Washington (irrespective of party) are prone to being rather dictatorial ...

It may just an case of appearing to embrace diplomacy, while attempting, yet again, to dictate and enforce our wants and desires on others ...

If one takes the position that sovereign nations have certain inalienable rights, then it might be, as you observed, that it really is none of our business - except that we have previously made it our business and now need to find a graceful manner in which to exit from that position.

If on the other hand, one takes the position that the international community has a vested interest in non-proliferation of nuclear weapons and making an effort at maintaining world peace, then it is clearly our business ... at least in some form or another.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It's a pretty good piece. And not because it's more or less the same things I've been saying here and elsewhere for years. It's good because if you read it honestly, it'll make you think.

The Meaning of e Koran,
by Robert Wright,
The New York Times

Test your religious literacy:
Which sacred text says that Jesus is the “word” of God? a) the Gospel of John; b) the Book of Isaiah; c) the Koran.

The correct answer is the Koran. But if you guessed the Gospel of John you get partial credit because its opening passage — “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God” — is an implicit reference to Jesus. In fact, when Muhammad described Jesus as God’s word, he was no doubt aware that he was affirming Christian teaching.

Extra-credit question: Which sacred text has this to say about the Hebrews: God, in his “prescience,” chose “the children of Israel … above all peoples”? I won’t bother to list the choices, since you’ve probably caught onto my game by now; that line, too, is in the Koran.

I highlight these passages in part for the sake of any self-appointed guardians of Judeo-Christian civilization who might still harbor plans to burn the Koran. I want them to be aware of everything that would go up in smoke.

But I should concede that I haven’t told the whole story. Even while calling Jesus the word of God — and “the Messiah” — the Koran denies that he was the son of God or was himself divine. And, though the Koran does call the Jews God’s chosen people, and sings the praises of Moses, and says that Jews and Muslims worship the same God, it also has anti-Jewish, and for that matter anti-Christian, passages.

This darker side of the Koran, presumably, has already come to the attention of would-be Koran burners and, more broadly, to many of the anti-Muslim Americans whom cynical politicians like Newt Gingrich are trying to harness and multiply. The other side of the Koran — the part that stresses interfaith harmony — is better known in liberal circles.

As for people who are familiar with both sides of the Koran — people who know the whole story — well, there may not be many of them. It’s characteristic of contemporary political discourse that the whole story doesn’t come to the attention of many people.

Thus, there are liberals who say that “jihad” refers to a person’s internal struggle to do what is right. And that’s true. There are conservatives who say “jihad” refers to military struggle. That’s true, too. But few people get the whole picture, which, actually, can be summarized pretty concisely:

The Koran’s exhortations to jihad in the military sense are sometimes brutal in tone but are so hedged by qualifiers that Muhammad clearly doesn’t espouse perpetual war against unbelievers, and is open to peace with them. (Here, for example, is my exegesis of the “sword verse,” the most famous jihadist passage in the Koran.) The formal doctrine of military jihad — which isn’t found in the Koran, and evolved only after Muhammad’s death — does seem to have initially been about endless conquest, but was then subject to so much amendment and re-interpretation as to render it compatible with world peace. Meanwhile, in the hadith — the non-Koranic sayings of the Prophet — the tradition arose that Muhammad had called holy war the “lesser jihad” and said that the “greater jihad” was the struggle against animal impulses within each Muslim’s soul.
Why do people tend to hear only one side of the story? A common explanation is that the digital age makes it easy to wall yourself off from inconvenient data, to spend your time in ideological “cocoons,” to hang out at blogs where you are part of a choir that gets preached to.

Makes sense to me. But, however big a role the Internet plays, it’s just amplifying something human: a tendency to latch onto evidence consistent with your worldview and ignore or downplay contrary evidence.

This side of human nature is generally labeled a bad thing, and it’s true that it sponsors a lot of bigotry, strife and war. But it actually has its upside. It means that the regrettable parts of the Koran — the regrettable parts of any religious scripture — don’t have to matter.

After all, the adherents of a given religion, like everyone else, focus on things that confirm their attitudes and ignore things that don’t. And they carry that tunnel vision into their own scripture; if there is hatred in their hearts, they’ll fasten onto the hateful parts of scripture, but if there’s not, they won’t. That’s why American Muslims of good will can describe Islam simply as a religion of love. They see the good parts of scripture, and either don’t see the bad or have ways of minimizing it.

So too with people who see in the Bible a loving and infinitely good God. They can maintain that view only by ignoring or downplaying parts of their scripture.
For example, there are those passages where God hands out the death sentence to infidels. In Deuteronomy, the Israelites are told to commit genocide — to destroy nearby peoples who worship the wrong Gods, and to make sure to kill all men, women and children. (“You must not let anything that breathes remain alive.”)

As for the New Testament, there’s that moment when Jesus calls a woman and her daughter “dogs” because they aren’t from Israel. In a way that’s the opposite of anti-Semitism — but not in a good way. And speaking of anti-Semitism, the New Testament, like the Koran, has some unflattering things to say about Jews.

Devoted Bible readers who aren’t hateful ignore or downplay all these passages rather than take them as guidance. They put to good use the tunnel vision that is part of human nature.

All the Abrahamic scriptures have all kinds of meanings — good and bad — and the question is which meanings will be activated and which will be inert. It all depends on what attitude believers bring to the text. So whenever we do things that influence the attitudes of believers, we shape the living meaning of their scriptures. In this sense, it’s actually within the power of non-Muslim Americans to help determine the meaning of the Koran. If we want its meaning to be as benign as possible, I recommend that we not talk about burning it. And if we want imams to fill mosques with messages of brotherly love, I recommend that we not tell them where they can and can’t build their mosques.

Of course, the street runs both ways. Muslims can influence the attitudes of Christians and Jews and hence the meanings of their texts. The less threatening that Muslims seem, the more welcoming Christians and Jews will be, and the more benign Christianity and Judaism will be. (A good first step would be to bring more Americans into contact with some of the overwhelming majority of Muslims who are in fact not threatening.)

You can even imagine a kind of virtuous circle: the less menacing each side seems, the less menacing the other side becomes — which in turn makes the first side less menacing still, and so on; the meaning of the Abrahamic scriptures would, in a real sense, get better and better and better.

Lately, it seems, things have been moving in the opposite direction; the circle has been getting vicious. And it’s in the nature of vicious circles that they’re hard to stop, much less reverse. On the other hand, if, through the concerted effort of people of good will, you do reverse a vicious circle, the very momentum that sustained it can build in the other direction — and at that point the force will be with you.

Postscript:
The quotations of the Koran come from Sura 4:171 (where Jesus is called God’s word), and Sura 44:32 (where the “children of Israel” are lauded). I’ve used the Rodwell translation, but the only place the choice of translator matters is the part that says God presciently placed the children of Israel above all others. Other translations say “purposefully,” or “knowingly.” By the way, if you’re curious as to the reason for the Koran’s seeming ambivalence toward Christians and Jews:
By my reading, the Koran is to a large extent the record of Muhammad’s attempt to bring all the area’s Christians, Jews and Arab polytheists into his Abrahamic flock, and it reflects, in turns, both his bitter disappointment at failing to do so and the many theological and ritual overtures he had made along the way. (For a time Muslims celebrated Yom Kippur, and they initially prayed toward Jerusalem, not Mecca.) That the suras aren’t ordered chronologically obscures this underlying logic.

Best reader comment:

The Koran if anyone reads it is thoroughly peaceful and the very definition for a believer to find peace in Islam is through submission to God's will, i.e. being obedient to him in things he prescribes and staying away from the sinful proscriptions. The "jihad verses" are indeed conditioned on the time and place referring to Prophets battle with the polytheists Arabs of the time who fear the new religion was trying to encroach on their power. And its interesting to note that when it says: "kill and fight them where you find them, i.e. pagan Arabs enemy tribe..." it is followed immediately by, "but if they incline towards peace, then you (Muhammad) should also." In what other religious text I ask does a verse.

The anti-Muslim bigots with the help of their sophist anti-Muslim friends like Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes who masquerade as "Islamic scholars" have led a great many Americans astray about the true Islamic practices and traditions. But then again many who are callous enough to believe their false assertions have an unfavorable view of Islam to begin with.

But the vast majority of good-willed non-Muslims who need understanding of Koran or Islam, their best bet would be to ask about it form a Muslim himself, at a local mosque, work colleague, or a friend. The sophomoric demagogues have done a marvelous job of twisting the faith and portraying it as dangerous and evil. With all the things going on in the world, there is no excuse for the majority to remain ignorant of Islam anymore.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Yeah, there are loads of articles about it.
Yes, there are ... many of them penned by folks who have no interest whatsoever in diplomatic solutions which allow for Iran's inalienable rights ... but rather seek total surrender and capitulation on the part of Iran ...

Even worse - quite a few of them have regime change in Iran as their true goal ...
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
It's a pretty good piece. And not because it's more or less the same things I've been saying here and elsewhere for years. It's good because if you read it honestly, it'll make you think.
Thank you ... it is a pretty profound piece if one really thinks about it - particularly from the standpoint that the adherents of one religion have the potential to affect the nature of another religion ... either for good or for ill ...

Like man himself, religion has a dualistic nature ... it can be used for either good or evil ... all according to the inclinations of those using it ...

Best reader comment:
In the reader comments one often finds nuggets of pure gold.
 
Top