The whole decision is here . OOIDA's petition is addressed in Part III , page 29 . http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/common/opinions/200707/06-1035a.pdf
Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petition
- Thread starter Crazynuff
- Start date
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
"Contrary to OOIDA’s claim, FMCSA did not “fail[] to
consider†this aspect of the problem. In fact, FMCSA
acknowledged comments from trucking companies and others
contending that the burden of changes to the sleeper-berth
exception would fall primarily on team drivers. See 2005 Rule,
70 Fed. Reg. at 50,028-29. But the agency concluded that this
marginal loss of productivity and flexibility was justified by
gains in other areas, and particularly by the reduction in fatigue
and fatigue-related accidents. See id. at 50,031. OOIDA may
disagree with this policy balance, but it does not reflect a failure
to consider relevant factors."
Marginal loss in productivity? Would they dare do the same thing to a factory because 16 hours straight means there's more of a chance for an accident? How about the fact that some of this crap is "straight thru"? How about fatigue from a driver "forced" to drive 8 or 10 hours to get the freight "straight thru"?
Here's part of OOIDA's arguement on the 14 hour rule:
"Under the 2005 Rule, drivers can no longer extend their driving-eligible period by taking off-duty breaks while waiting to load or unload. FMCSA concluded that, as a consequence, the 2005 Rule “prevents shippers, receivers, and companies from abusing the off-duty
hours and forcing drivers to use them as unpaid time.â€
In support of this conclusion, the agency reviewed comments from drivers and industry associations regarding how the limit was working in practice. (It was instituted as part of the 2003 Rule.) FMCSA explained that “[t]he general consensus among drivers was that their workday, on average, is shorter under the new rules. They no longer work 20-hour days due to the 14-hour consecutive requirement.†Id.; see also id. (“The [National Industrial Transportation League] commented
that . . . operations at loading docks have been reconfigured to
decrease dwell time and to expedite loading and unloading in
order to minimize driver on-duty time not devoted to driving."
-If the FMCSA reviewed comments from "drivers and industry associations", who are they? Sorry, but ATA flunkies don't represent the whole trucking industry!!!
-The general consensus was that the workday, on average, was shorter? Yeah... cause now we can't take naps, or stop to eat, ON AVERAGE.
-Who in the ##### is The National Industrial Transportation League? Is that like the farm club for the ATA or something? And when have dock workers, or most companies, ever gived a damm how long trucks sit before they're unloaded?
I'm sorry... but some of us have to work for a living. 10 on 10 off? Ain't gonna happen.
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
"Contrary to OOIDA’s claim, FMCSA did not “fail[] to
consider†this aspect of the problem. In fact, FMCSA
acknowledged comments from trucking companies and others
contending that the burden of changes to the sleeper-berth
exception would fall primarily on team drivers. See 2005 Rule,
70 Fed. Reg. at 50,028-29. But the agency concluded that this
marginal loss of productivity and flexibility was justified by
gains in other areas, and particularly by the reduction in fatigue
and fatigue-related accidents. See id. at 50,031. OOIDA may
disagree with this policy balance, but it does not reflect a failure
to consider relevant factors."
Marginal loss in productivity? Would they dare do the same thing to a factory because 16 hours straight means there's more of a chance for an accident? How about the fact that some of this crap is "straight thru"? How about fatigue from a driver "forced" to drive 8 or 10 hours to get the freight "straight thru"?
Here's part of OOIDA's arguement on the 14 hour rule:
"Under the 2005 Rule, drivers can no longer extend their driving-eligible period by taking off-duty breaks while waiting to load or unload. FMCSA concluded that, as a consequence, the 2005 Rule “prevents shippers, receivers, and companies from abusing the off-duty
hours and forcing drivers to use them as unpaid time.â€
In support of this conclusion, the agency reviewed comments from drivers and industry associations regarding how the limit was working in practice. (It was instituted as part of the 2003 Rule.) FMCSA explained that “[t]he general consensus among drivers was that their workday, on average, is shorter under the new rules. They no longer work 20-hour days due to the 14-hour consecutive requirement.†Id.; see also id. (“The [National Industrial Transportation League] commented
that . . . operations at loading docks have been reconfigured to
decrease dwell time and to expedite loading and unloading in
order to minimize driver on-duty time not devoted to driving."
-If the FMCSA reviewed comments from "drivers and industry associations", who are they? Sorry, but ATA flunkies don't represent the whole trucking industry!!!
-The general consensus was that the workday, on average, was shorter? Yeah... cause now we can't take naps, or stop to eat, ON AVERAGE.
-Who in the ##### is The National Industrial Transportation League? Is that like the farm club for the ATA or something? And when have dock workers, or most companies, ever gived a damm how long trucks sit before they're unloaded?
I'm sorry... but some of us have to work for a living. 10 on 10 off? Ain't gonna happen.
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
Rest now while you can. Within a couple years vans will most likely be on logs too.
Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB
OOIDA Life Member 677319, JOIN NOW
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
Rest now while you can. Within a couple years vans will most likely be on logs too.
Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB
OOIDA Life Member 677319, JOIN NOW
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
rollnthunder
Expert Expediter
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
I for one liked the way it used to be when we could split up our sleeper birth.If i had time to get the load there then i could pull over and take a 4-5 sleep break.Then drive agian.How many people with regular jobs,kids in the house and what ever else get 10hrs of sleep?I have asked every person i know that question and they all start laughing and most say they cant remember when they got over 7hrs of sleep.Back when the law allowed us to split our sleeper birth time i could take a break if i was tired.Now im forced to drive no matter what or cheat my log book to take a nap because im too tired.I think these new rules are the most dumbest thing they have ever thought of.My wife works for a health care place and she can work 10,12,14 and even 16hr days and its ok and this is in the health care field go figure they could accidently give the patient the wrong med or to much because of being tired but thats ok.These are the kind of rules and laws that get made when its some idiot sitting behind the desk that doesnt have a clue about trucking.I have made several complaints with the FMCSA.I for one would like to know who did the study and how they came to the conclusion they came to about the sleeping and safety of truckers.I DISAGREE so much with it that its not even funny.Bottom line is with the new law that we have to use im either forced to drive while im tired or cheat my log to drive safe because im tired and i need a nap but i cant take a complete 10hrs off.
I for one liked the way it used to be when we could split up our sleeper birth.If i had time to get the load there then i could pull over and take a 4-5 sleep break.Then drive agian.How many people with regular jobs,kids in the house and what ever else get 10hrs of sleep?I have asked every person i know that question and they all start laughing and most say they cant remember when they got over 7hrs of sleep.Back when the law allowed us to split our sleeper birth time i could take a break if i was tired.Now im forced to drive no matter what or cheat my log book to take a nap because im too tired.I think these new rules are the most dumbest thing they have ever thought of.My wife works for a health care place and she can work 10,12,14 and even 16hr days and its ok and this is in the health care field go figure they could accidently give the patient the wrong med or to much because of being tired but thats ok.These are the kind of rules and laws that get made when its some idiot sitting behind the desk that doesnt have a clue about trucking.I have made several complaints with the FMCSA.I for one would like to know who did the study and how they came to the conclusion they came to about the sleeping and safety of truckers.I DISAGREE so much with it that its not even funny.Bottom line is with the new law that we have to use im either forced to drive while im tired or cheat my log to drive safe because im tired and i need a nap but i cant take a complete 10hrs off.
Packmule
Expert Expediter
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
Leo,
I'm sure you are right on van logging in the next few years, maybe sooner. Until then I will do what I am doing. But when it happens, I will go a different course because I will not push myself where my body becomes my enemy and threatens the well being of myself and others.
Danny
Leo,
I'm sure you are right on van logging in the next few years, maybe sooner. Until then I will do what I am doing. But when it happens, I will go a different course because I will not push myself where my body becomes my enemy and threatens the well being of myself and others.
Danny
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
You're right, Pel. They're VPs of Schnieder and such... members of the ATA. And what they're doing is simply trying to put the little mom and pop companies out of business.
Of all the stuff I don't like about trucking, it's the lack of voice we have. No offense to anyone here, but trucking, in general, is full of the most stupid ppl I've ever seen! We will never have a voice as long as two drivers can't agree which way the toilet paper goes on the holder.
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
You're right, Pel. They're VPs of Schnieder and such... members of the ATA. And what they're doing is simply trying to put the little mom and pop companies out of business.
Of all the stuff I don't like about trucking, it's the lack of voice we have. No offense to anyone here, but trucking, in general, is full of the most stupid ppl I've ever seen! We will never have a voice as long as two drivers can't agree which way the toilet paper goes on the holder.
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
We need to get rid of paid by the mile. If they went to the hourly rate for equipment and/or drivers, using an 8 hour day just like all of corporate America it would solve alot of the problems. Here´s the scenario, using round figures for ease of explanation:
How much does it cost a large trucking company to put a truck on the road, with a driver? Let´s say $50 dollars an hour. The truck runs 8 hours,that´s $400 to the truck. After 8 hours shuld go to doubletime. That´s $100 per hour. If you run the current 11 hour day drive rule, then for a seviceable day on that truck of 11 hours it comes to $700 a day. If the truck is a team operation the price per hour could be $75 per hour around the clock. If it´s a company truck and driver lets use $20 per hour for the same 8 hours for the driver, and again doubletime at $40 for over 8 hours. The longhaul driver who is on the road, is not going to try and squeeze more miles into a workday and violate the 8 hours, because if he does go over 8 hours he will be compensated at double the pay. When he gets to the 11 hour mark, better shut´er down, because he´s not going to make one cent more for that day, and the fines at this point, if enforced could be very damaging. Statistics prove how far a truck can go on any given day, so abusers would be weeded out. O&O´s would get their just compensation. Teams would be paid accordingly, and driver fatigue will go the way of the dinosaur, because if there´s no overtime, the truck stops at the 8 hour mark. Dock waiting time would go down dramatically, because trucks would have to be loaded and moved out more efficently by shippers or they will be paying higher tranportation costs, because it involves more time. Under the current pay per mile system, the transportation industry and the drivers eat the loss of inefficiency competing for freight. The shippers play the industry like a violin, and it needs to be overhauled. I know this sounds very general, but again look at corporate America. Why do you think piecework is a thing of the past?
We need to get rid of paid by the mile. If they went to the hourly rate for equipment and/or drivers, using an 8 hour day just like all of corporate America it would solve alot of the problems. Here´s the scenario, using round figures for ease of explanation:
How much does it cost a large trucking company to put a truck on the road, with a driver? Let´s say $50 dollars an hour. The truck runs 8 hours,that´s $400 to the truck. After 8 hours shuld go to doubletime. That´s $100 per hour. If you run the current 11 hour day drive rule, then for a seviceable day on that truck of 11 hours it comes to $700 a day. If the truck is a team operation the price per hour could be $75 per hour around the clock. If it´s a company truck and driver lets use $20 per hour for the same 8 hours for the driver, and again doubletime at $40 for over 8 hours. The longhaul driver who is on the road, is not going to try and squeeze more miles into a workday and violate the 8 hours, because if he does go over 8 hours he will be compensated at double the pay. When he gets to the 11 hour mark, better shut´er down, because he´s not going to make one cent more for that day, and the fines at this point, if enforced could be very damaging. Statistics prove how far a truck can go on any given day, so abusers would be weeded out. O&O´s would get their just compensation. Teams would be paid accordingly, and driver fatigue will go the way of the dinosaur, because if there´s no overtime, the truck stops at the 8 hour mark. Dock waiting time would go down dramatically, because trucks would have to be loaded and moved out more efficently by shippers or they will be paying higher tranportation costs, because it involves more time. Under the current pay per mile system, the transportation industry and the drivers eat the loss of inefficiency competing for freight. The shippers play the industry like a violin, and it needs to be overhauled. I know this sounds very general, but again look at corporate America. Why do you think piecework is a thing of the past?
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
>The longhaul driver who is on the road, is not going
>to try and squeeze more miles into a workday and violate the
>8 hours, because if he does go over 8 hours he will be
>compensated at double the pay.
He's not only not going to squeeze a nine hour trip into 8 hours he's going to drag every trip out to 11 hours even if it's a 100 mile trip specifically because of the double pay. Work 8 paid 8, work 11 paid 14. That's a 75% raise for the day. Using your $20 figure, he'll make $280 for the day instead of $160. I agree something needs to change but I suspect this system would be terribly abused.
Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB
OOIDA Life Member 677319, JOIN NOW
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
>The longhaul driver who is on the road, is not going
>to try and squeeze more miles into a workday and violate the
>8 hours, because if he does go over 8 hours he will be
>compensated at double the pay.
He's not only not going to squeeze a nine hour trip into 8 hours he's going to drag every trip out to 11 hours even if it's a 100 mile trip specifically because of the double pay. Work 8 paid 8, work 11 paid 14. That's a 75% raise for the day. Using your $20 figure, he'll make $280 for the day instead of $160. I agree something needs to change but I suspect this system would be terribly abused.
Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB
OOIDA Life Member 677319, JOIN NOW
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
pelicn
Veteran Expediter
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
I don't think that trucking could go to an hourly rate because of abuse. We don't punch the so called time clock, and so many of us came to this "lifestyle" for that reason. HOS doesn't need to be so complicated, it needs to have a little common sense applied to the rules. The trucking industry also has to make shippers/receivers accountable for delays. The expedited side of this industry is much better at that than the general freight side.
I don't think that trucking could go to an hourly rate because of abuse. We don't punch the so called time clock, and so many of us came to this "lifestyle" for that reason. HOS doesn't need to be so complicated, it needs to have a little common sense applied to the rules. The trucking industry also has to make shippers/receivers accountable for delays. The expedited side of this industry is much better at that than the general freight side.
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
If any of these companies were worth their salt, they would offer a guaranteed salary PLUS mileage. Maybe guaranteed $500/week plus .10/mi. That way, they could continue what they do... promise miles they don't deliver, and not have to go to hourly pay. Also, it would put more pressure on the company to get their trucks in and out of docks, as they have money to make up for (the trucker's salary). That would solve a whole lot of problems.
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
If any of these companies were worth their salt, they would offer a guaranteed salary PLUS mileage. Maybe guaranteed $500/week plus .10/mi. That way, they could continue what they do... promise miles they don't deliver, and not have to go to hourly pay. Also, it would put more pressure on the company to get their trucks in and out of docks, as they have money to make up for (the trucker's salary). That would solve a whole lot of problems.
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
There is also the not inconsiderable matter of traffic congestion, and construction slowdowns, to figure into the equation - the same number of miles takes a lot longer to drive than it used to, and it's time that drivers can't use productively - we just eat the cost.
Driving up 95, for example, from Alexandria, Va, through DC, Baltimore, and NYC, takes a LOT more time than the mileage would indicate. Last week, I used 2 hrs, going 20 miles, just due to construction & congestion!
And it's only going to get worse, sigh.
There is also the not inconsiderable matter of traffic congestion, and construction slowdowns, to figure into the equation - the same number of miles takes a lot longer to drive than it used to, and it's time that drivers can't use productively - we just eat the cost.
Driving up 95, for example, from Alexandria, Va, through DC, Baltimore, and NYC, takes a LOT more time than the mileage would indicate. Last week, I used 2 hrs, going 20 miles, just due to construction & congestion!
And it's only going to get worse, sigh.
marvinkwagner
Not a Member
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
Here
Pay Everyone 1500 a week after taken full taxes out and give us
also our full Perdiam of 52 aday added to the above for each day we are out on the road.
Then have us only drive 10 hours a day. peroid.
Sleep for 8 hours and then get up and drive.
oops that wont work neither. The Cheap Freights would get where they
need to go. and Companies couldnt afford to pay us
Solution Since the GOVT wants to regulate everyting then let them cough up our 1500.00 a week after taxes. If they can pay those dam
Congressmen 15000.00 a week they can afford to pay us at least 1500.00 after taxes and pay our tax free perdieam on top of that.
Let the Govt run the trucking Industry as it seem it allready does.
United States Trucking (Uncle Sam Trucking) HA HA
Oh ya and Full Medical and Dental Coverage as well Free U and Family
Wouldnt that be Nice.
Seriously America Truckers need to band together weather there owner ops or Contract Drivers or Company Drivers.
If we stopped for one week it would bring the Country too its Knees
That Wont happen as no one is willing to do that. OODIA they have not got the pull or the Clout to do anything for they are like a pesky
fly to those that make the laws. (So they put up some Fly Strips {sweets } and they are satisified.
as with the White Knuckels Divisons as well.
Nope Im NOT
Here
Pay Everyone 1500 a week after taken full taxes out and give us
also our full Perdiam of 52 aday added to the above for each day we are out on the road.
Then have us only drive 10 hours a day. peroid.
Sleep for 8 hours and then get up and drive.
oops that wont work neither. The Cheap Freights would get where they
need to go. and Companies couldnt afford to pay us
Solution Since the GOVT wants to regulate everyting then let them cough up our 1500.00 a week after taxes. If they can pay those dam
Congressmen 15000.00 a week they can afford to pay us at least 1500.00 after taxes and pay our tax free perdieam on top of that.
Let the Govt run the trucking Industry as it seem it allready does.
United States Trucking (Uncle Sam Trucking) HA HA
Oh ya and Full Medical and Dental Coverage as well Free U and Family
Wouldnt that be Nice.
Seriously America Truckers need to band together weather there owner ops or Contract Drivers or Company Drivers.
If we stopped for one week it would bring the Country too its Knees
That Wont happen as no one is willing to do that. OODIA they have not got the pull or the Clout to do anything for they are like a pesky
fly to those that make the laws. (So they put up some Fly Strips {sweets } and they are satisified.
as with the White Knuckels Divisons as well.
Nope Im NOT
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
Marvin... you're so crazy sometimes, you actually make sense here!
The government wants to regulate, and regulate, and control us. Since we are basically controlled by the government, why don't we push them to make trucking a government entity??? Maybe the threat of 7 million drivers telling the government to pay us like government employees, with all the bennies and such, maybe we can get them to back off and let us do our job.
Main difference between employees and independant contractors... employees get told how to do their job. The government is doing that quite well with us.
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
Marvin... you're so crazy sometimes, you actually make sense here!
The government wants to regulate, and regulate, and control us. Since we are basically controlled by the government, why don't we push them to make trucking a government entity??? Maybe the threat of 7 million drivers telling the government to pay us like government employees, with all the bennies and such, maybe we can get them to back off and let us do our job.
Main difference between employees and independant contractors... employees get told how to do their job. The government is doing that quite well with us.
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
nightcreacher
Veteran Expediter
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
I dont agree with the hos rules,not one bit,especially not being able to split the bunk,but if we didnt have some kind of rule,2 things would happen,1st most of these cheap carriers would have drivers driving til they couldnt see straight,2nd you will always have those drivers that all they care about are miles,the more the better,and would drive aroud the clock,so yes we need some regulation,but the biggest problem,and for this reason nothing will get resolved,the biggest portion of truck drivers arent regestered to vote,and the politicians know it.You can complain all you want,but the vote is what it takes to change policy.
I dont agree with the hos rules,not one bit,especially not being able to split the bunk,but if we didnt have some kind of rule,2 things would happen,1st most of these cheap carriers would have drivers driving til they couldnt see straight,2nd you will always have those drivers that all they care about are miles,the more the better,and would drive aroud the clock,so yes we need some regulation,but the biggest problem,and for this reason nothing will get resolved,the biggest portion of truck drivers arent regestered to vote,and the politicians know it.You can complain all you want,but the vote is what it takes to change policy.
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
RE: Court's response to OOIDA sleeper berth petiti
The original rules focused on driving time. That's the way it should be.
Airline pilots don't get dictated on how much sleep they get; only on the number of hours they can fly. Why are we any different? Because we don't have a voice!
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
The original rules focused on driving time. That's the way it should be.
Airline pilots don't get dictated on how much sleep they get; only on the number of hours they can fly. Why are we any different? Because we don't have a voice!
-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!