Congress and the war.

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Nowhere in the Constitution is any branch except Congress given the power to declare war. The declaration of war is a legislative-branch function, not an executive-branch function. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution mandates that Congress "shall have the power to declare war."

Congress violated the "separation of powers" under the Constitution when they gave the war powers decision for Iraq to Bush. It was done in HJR 114, "Authorization For The Use Of Military Force Against Iraq", 2nd session, 107th Congress.

What Congress did here was not a declaration of war. They bascially said to the president, "You decide when we should go to war, and let us know shortly afterwards."

Nowhere in the Constitution is any branch of government given the power and the option of giving away a power and function specifically assigned to that branch in the Constitution. To do so is (1) unimaginable in the context of constitutional law, and (2) a violation of our Constitution's "separation of powers".

In the prima facie case we're building here, every Member and Senator in Congress -- all 373 of them -- who voted to give Bush his very own war-delcaring powers for Iraq -- is guilty of violating his/her oath to uphold the Constitution. On top of this, they are also guilty of violating 18 USC 241 -- conspiracy against the citizen-rights of US soldiers to be sent to war only on the expressed order of Congress.

* See House roll call vote 455, 10 October 2002, -- which shows the names of the 296 approving Members.
* See Senate roll call vote 237, 11 October 2002, -- which shows the names of the 77 approving Senators.

HJR-114 is not a one-dimensional Congressional crime. When Bush signed it into law -- "contrary to his oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States, and, to the best of his ability, to preserve, protect, and defend the Constituton of the United States, and in violation of his constitutonal duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed" (quoted from all three of Nixon's articles of impeachment, July 1974) -- it became Public Law 107-243. It became, under 18 USC 241, a conspiracy of Congress and the president.

That is, Congress and this president used an unconstitutional federal statute to violate and override the supreme law of the land, conspiring to commit felony murder of US soldiers in violation of 18 USC 241.

It makes no difference whatsoever that the legislative history of Public Law 107-243 declares that it is based on Public Law 93-148, the War Powers Resolution of 1973.

The 1973 law does the same unconstitutionality. It is a Congressional attempt to give away Congress's war powers function to the president, who, at the time, was another of fascist corporatism's favorite sons, Richard Nixon.

As with Public Law 107-243, Public Law 93-148 is an unconstitutional federal statute law used to violate and override the supreme law of the land. It lays claim to the Constitutional power of Congress to make all laws, "necessary and proper", for all the powers of government. But necessary and proper laws -- all federal statutes -- must be constitutional. No unconstitutional law, such as giving away specifically assigned war powers in violation of "separation of powers", is "necessary and proper".

Congress' "separation of powers" violation with HJR-114 and Bush signing it into law were both significant, high crimes. But Bush committed an additional violation of the Constitution, an additional high crime, when he used the legislative function in ordering the invasion.

Bush's invasion orders (Special Ops forces into the back-country months before the March 2003 "decapitation" strike) violated the Constitution's promise of our soldiers' citizen rights, as well as 18 USC 241. Under the law, Bush can be criminally prosecuted today for his violation of 18 USC 241, regardless of his being a sitting president. Of course, as demonstrated by inter-agency and inter-branch collusions, Bush lives above the law.

Under 18 USC 241, as soon as one US soldier was killed in action in Iraq, Bush was prosecutable for conspiracy to commit felony murder. If convicted, 18 USC 241 says that he and his co-conspirators can be sentenced to life imprisonment -- or to death.

US military officers take their loyalty oath to the Constitution -- not to the president, or even to Congress. Every officer who participated in giving the invasion orders is guilty of oath violation and of 18 USC 241 violation -- regardless of rank.

The 373 Congressional representatives, the Bush-Cheney administration insiders and outsiders, and all involved military brass who gave the orders to invade Iraq should be given a fair trial, and if convicted, sentenced to life imprisonment or to death.

That's the law. Dura lex, sed lex -- the law is harsh, but it is the law. Nobody is excused from felony murder because he/she holds a high station in life. Delivering the co-conspiratiors into the legal realm is, in my opinion, one of the very best ways in which we can honor our war dead.

The use of unconstitutional stature law to violate and override constitutions is older than our country. In our 200-plus year history, the violation of our Constitution by government officials and judges is one of our single largest political problems. Witness Bush's usurpation of the presidency, January 2001. Witness the "USA Patriot Act". Witness the Supremes with "eminent domain" and "medical marijuana".
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM,
What a bunch of stuff there.

I am trying to figure out where this came from, William Hughes or another anti-bush person.

Well it don’t matter because here is how it really works, the president in every real war, from Spanish American war to World War 1 to World War 2 to the mess in Asia all did the same exact thing. It is spelled out in the house and senate rules how the resolution is to be written, the references that are used and how they are used and how it is to be voted on, joint resolution means just that – a resolution for a bill to become law voted both chambers with a single outcome. The word “Declaration of war†does not have to be in the wording of the resolution; this seems to be an important point with all these Bush bashing articles, the same goes for a bunch who think it is an action for congress to initiate a declaration of war, that is the job of the president.

The sad thing is that many of these people who come up with this stuff don’t understand that it is the congresses job to ‘authorize’ the action and the commander in chief to execute it as he sees fit. It is not the congresses position to run the war, set the deadlines or goals. These people come up with all of his un-constitutional stuff all the time, what I read about the people during WW2 and how FDR took the country to war without provocation, even after we were attacked on 12/7/41.

“The 1973 law does the same unconstitutionality. It is a Congressional attempt to give away Congress's war powers function to the president, who, at the time, was another of fascist corporatism's favorite sons, Richard Nixon.â€

Is also is sad that many people don’t get the idea that if there is a constitutional issue, there is only one place that determine this and the last time I checked, for the last 24 years no one has yet brought this up to the supreme court or for that matter brought up any points what other presidents did in the past. If anyone should be brought up as an example of unconstitutional use of powers it is Truman and Korea, but that is for another time. The administration that would be at risk about the constitutionality of either the war powers act or the declaration of war is not the bush administration but rather the Clinton administration in both the case of Somalia and Serbia. In the case of Serbia, Clinton committed the US to position of war with a country that did nothing to us and surpassing the 60 day requirement of congresses involvement under the war powers act of 1973 and no one said a word.

“Bush's invasion orders (Special Ops forces into the back-country months before the March 2003 "decapitation" strike) violated the Constitution's promise of our soldiers' citizen rights, as well as 18 USC 241. Under the law, Bush can be criminally prosecuted today for his violation of 18 USC 241, regardless of his being a sitting president. Of course, as demonstrated by inter-agency and inter-branch collusions, Bush lives above the law.

Under 18 USC 241, as soon as one US soldier was killed in action in Iraq, Bush was prosecutable for conspiracy to commit felony murder. If convicted, 18 USC 241 says that he and his co-conspirators can be sentenced to life imprisonment -- or to death.

US military officers take their loyalty oath to the Constitution -- not to the president, or even to Congress. Every officer who participated in giving the invasion orders is guilty of oath violation and of 18 USC 241 violation -- regardless of rank.â€


Here is another bunch of stuff.

The law is;

“TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 241

If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same;...

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.“


The last time I checked, the constitution overrides this and the constitution says the president is in charge of the military – period. There is no violation and the oath does not have to include an oath to the president but rather has an assumption that you are to up hold the constitution, hence you listen to your commander in chief and follow his orders. The military has become more liberal in recent years and so much should be questioned about actions of some of these people in the military who think that they have rights to speak up or to obfuscate their commitment while they are supposed to discharge their obligations to this country and to each citizen of this country.

The issue of committing felony murder is also addressed in several sections of codes in where the president can’t be held responsible for what happened to people in the military while he executes his duties as the president under the constitution, which is the way it is supposed to work.

“The use of unconstitutional stature law to violate and override constitutions is older than our country. In our 200-plus year history, the violation of our Constitution by government officials and judges is one of our single largest political problems. Witness Bush's usurpation of the presidency, January 2001. Witness the "USA Patriot Act". Witness the Supremes with "eminent domain" and "medical marijuana".â€

Again for some reason there are more nut jobs and conspiracy moon bats that come up with this stuff because of their hatred of Bush but with these same people, they failed to bring these issues up during the Clinton administration.

Honestly reading the above statement, I wonder what it is all about. I mean ok usurping of the presidency would seem more applicable under Clinton than Bush, as it would have been under Eisenhower or Kennedy than Nixon. The other thing is, I have yet to see a repeal of the patriot act, so the dems and the repubs are the same but the Supreme Court thing is the best.

The Supreme Court decision on the case of Kelo v. New London (which I know a lot about the case and background) was decided on by a liberal leaning court, opposite of what the Bush administration and the conservative justices were for. The issue of Medical Cannabis, well that is somewhat of a long and complicated situation, not easily solved but I think that if there is an issue to point to it is the ban on an individual to import legal subscription drugs into the US – that is something that could be used as a legitimate argument.

One last thing, if there is one issue that bush can be impeached over it is the lack of closing down the border. The problem is the dems won’t approach the issue because of their love to see the country go down the tubes more than Bush.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Greg, very well said and far more than I'd ever have the discipline to create. My abbreviated response would be switch off channel 167 on your xm radio and find one that isn't a bunch of loonies.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

simon says

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Keep up the good work my man. Bush/Cheney could be charged with violations of international law as well for a un-provoked war of aggression. Just what a few of the Nazis where charged for in Nurmemburg.
All these RW'ers on this site, never answer the main question? Why are we fighting in Iraq? Read...OIL. That's the answer. Funny how these few make so much noise, when they are in the 20% faction.

All they can do is howl about Bush bashing...well I don't think the Dems come off clean either. They continue to support it, just act like they are opposed. Problem is, if elections go off as per usual, then the Dems will be in and they can pursue their tactical differences with the ignorant, arrogant criminal in the current White House...
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Simon,
Please explain to me and others what you mean by un-provoked war of aggression?

The last time I checked the policy that Bush pursued was a democratic policy with the support from the UN, not an action that was taken without prior knowledge or approval from the international community.

You need to understand that the condemnation of the actions we took against Iraq by Kofi Anan were not because we took the actions but rather he and others in his administration were profiting from having Saddam in power through the Oil for Food program. The international community at large, especially the Arab nations were not all that thrilled at the prospects but you can't deny the fact that outside of Iraq’s internal struggle with terrorist now, this has brought a positive change to the region – meaning that now there is more involvement with Iran, Jordan, Syria and Libya than ever before on some really major issues. The rhetoric is there as always but the diplomatic conversations have increase dramatically to the point that Iran is now opening itself up just enough to bring some hope.

The issue of oil is not the reason we went into Iraq that is not even an issue for anything outside of the left leaning blogs and dumb reporters to use as an excuse to espouse hatred for Bush. If this was the case here is what would have happened; we would have fought harder in the oil fields and ports of Iraq ignoring the rest of the country including Baghdad, securing all of oil fields and ports and removing everyone within the region. We would then have to bring in ‘experts’ to straighten up the oil fields and transportation system, start bringing in the tankers and then start shipping the oil to either the refineries in Saudi or Japan. We would take the spoils of war for ourselves, which by the way the Iraqis expected us to do.

But here is what we did instead; we secured the oil fields for the Iraqis, brought in people who can get their systems up and running and we insist on that they share the profits of oil sales with everyone in the country. Kind of odd that we fought the war over oil and then fought harder to make sure everyone gets a share in the country we just went to war with, right?

One thing that many think should have been done is to make the Iraqis pay for the war by giving us a percentage of the oil profits, but that is no where on the agenda of either the Bush administration or the new Iraqi government – funny, huh?

Well about international intervention with the US, there is no way that Bush could be charged with crimes on an international level, the backlash from the US with putting an American president on trial in The Hague would decimate the UN, NATO and other organization that are completely and fully dependent on the US for funds, equipment and support. We as a country would not tolerate the interference on the level that would be required to have such a thing happen and the premiere powers to be in the Democratic Party would pretty much lead the way on this issue because they too know that they would be at risk in the future if this would be allowed just once. They know, Hillary, Obama and Edware that if they start thinking as internationalist, they will not win anything and the people of the US will be so p*ssed off that the party will be kicked to the curb.

Speaking about those three and the rest of the Democrat party, they need to understand that the only way they will win is if the repubs don’t have a strong leader to put in the election, which is the way it is looking. Thompson and Giuliani seem to be the two that can pull it together but they need to step away from the war and start talking about domestic issues right out of the chute. The dems are so focused on the war, which really does not matter to a majority of the country that they have a chance of turning people off in mass and their backlash would be not to be elected.

Well I digress….

Also I am not a 100% Bush supporter, in fact I am a 50% Bush supporter – I support tax cuts, I support the war in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places, and I support some of the domestic policies. I understand what the war in Iraq was about, even though there were major mistakes made and I understand the cause and effect of high taxes as seen in my home state of Michigandemocratfantasyland – no jobs and companies fleeing.

What I don’t support and am super critical on is the border and this BS that we can’t clean up the invasion problem, the border guard and sheriff in jail issues, the Republican Party’s need to spend like liberals without a veto for the first term and the departure from the basic values of the president and the party he is supposed to be leading. All of these things are very important to me and the rest of the country and show that we are truly leaderless on domestic issues.

I gave you a very legitimate reason for impeachment and I would support it; not securing the border and pushing for laws that allows people who damage our sovereignty to be part of the country, that is an impeachable offense – think about it.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Simon... Yep... it is about oil. There, I said it.

On the same token, when asked about the UN resolutions, what do left wingers say? Nothing... they change the subject.

-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I won't say that oil doesn't enter into it. The ongoing secure availability of oil is mandatory. That said, the percentage contributed by Iraq is nowhere near the largest. If the answer were oil we would have gone elsewhere where the answer would have been much BIGGER. It is about many things among which oil is a lesser component. I am VERY disappointed in Bush however the lesser of two evils is still the lesser evil. That doesn't mean I wouldn't much rather have a still far lesser evil but at least we don't have the wrong winger we might have had instead of the right winger we have to put up with.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

jasonsprouse

Expert Expediter
It's all in the wording. It isn't a "war" (declared war) it's a "war on terrorism".

Someone tell me why we're there? We were chasing? O'sama? Sadam? Oh, we're fighting the "insurgents" after we invaded their country and installed our own government.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Jason
I think that the original intention was to put into action the last few UN resolutions, to fulfill the US position on Iraq and to install a better government after we abandoned the real freedom fighters in Iraq after the gulf war in the early 90’s.

We are still after Bin Laden, we deposed Saddam and allowed the Iraqis to put him on trail under their laws, not ours and the insurgents are no insurgents but rather former military of Saddam’s elite army and terrorist from Jordan, Syria, Iran, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

By far we didn’t install our own government, they made their choice on how to form their government and what their constitution has in it, we did have influence but they did not copy our government or our constitution. As matter of fact the people over here have complained so much that there is religion as part of the state, they missed the point that Iraq is not and never was intended as an extension of the US.

But I was reading some interesting things today, one of them was the issue of the Iraqis actually pulling together (the different sects) and starting to fight the terrorist themselves. Many former Al Qaeda Iraqi ‘insurgents’ have become disillusioned over the deaths of their family and friends and have come forward to help the US and Iraqi forces to find and kill some of these people. It is a start, a good start but far from what it should be and it shows there is real hope.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
We didn't install our own government. They elected their own government. How long was it until we left Europe after WW2? Oh, that's right, we're still there. Well then, how long was it until we left Korea? Oh, that's right, we're still there.

We've lost too many of our people in the 4 years we've been involved in this. It became too many at 1 however for the amount of good we have done for the people the losses are minuscule compared to any prior conflict we've been engaged in. That is not saying I wouldn't prefer we'd been able to do what we need to do with no losses or that I don't want to finish with no more losses. Everyone wants that. We need to help the people that want our help and see to it they can maintain the freely elected government they elected.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Sheesh...so what was the purpose of invading Iraq?? To support a UN resolution? Come on..the U.S has no respect for the U.N. Why use it as a tool now? Because its serves this admins end goal???
Terrorists?? Saddam was the ultimate police force there'd be no one else in charge except him...So that line is crap.
Declarartion of War on Terror? Isn't that rather vague and open ended?
Oh wait..Because he invaded a country Kuwait which as you know belonged to Iraq before the British took it from Iraq many years ago, Kuwait was already a land taken by force...
Oh...maybe because he gassed the Kurds?? Now that that makes sense..he kills a couple thousand Kurds BUT we did nothing to stop Rwanda massacre of millions!!!
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
“Sheesh...so what was the purpose of invading Iraq?? To support a UN resolution? Come on..the U.S has no respect for the U.N. Why use it as a tool now? Because its serves this admins end goal???â€

OVM, You didn’t read my statement –

“I think that the original intention was to put into action the last few UN resolutions, to fulfill the US position on Iraq and to install a better government after we abandoned the real freedom fighters in Iraq after the gulf war in the early 90’s.â€

I said I think the original intention was… not I know we are there for….

OVM the fact is that the UN did indeed support the action, it is also fact we abandoned the people who were ready to fight Saddam internally. If you read my past statements, I have brought up the UN several times, not just in this thread.

“Terrorists?? Saddam was the ultimate police force there'd be no one else in charge except him...So that line is crap.â€

Saddam had control of his own people but did not have control over the people who were going into and out of his country in the way that he could not control their actions outside of the country. Believe it or not he did support terrorism in a big way and had met with several groups, even providing money to the families of the terrorist who were killed blowing themselves up in Israel – so the assumption that he had nothing to do with terrorism is a bad thing. You have to understand the culture and how it works over there, their ideals are different.

“Declarartion of War on Terror? Isn't that rather vague and open ended?â€

To quote someone – “the war on terror is misplaced, the idea that you can have a war on a action is ludicrous, one can not fight an action but people. But in the 21st century, we in the US do things with slogans, whether they are correct or not.â€

I have to agree that there is no war on terror but of terrorist and with that it should be as vague and open ended as the terrorist themselves. You can not fight them with the legal system or the ACLU supporting the enemy, it takes courage, conviction and unity – all something that is open ended.

“Oh wait..Because he invaded a country Kuwait which as you know belonged to Iraq before the British took it from Iraq many years ago, Kuwait was already a land taken by force...â€

You know that if you look at a map of the Arabia peninsula from the time the Ottoman Empire took over to the end of WW1 there were a bunch of changes from Africa to Eastern Europe, so who cares if Kuwait belonged to Iraq at one time, it all belonged to some other country some other time.

“Oh...maybe because he gassed the Kurds?? Now that that makes sense..he kills a couple thousand Kurds BUT we did nothing to stop Rwanda massacre of millions!!!â€

Yes that I think is one reason that we did invade but remember that the Kurds seem to be doing well in comparison to others.

As for Rwanda (actually they say less than 1.5M died), under a democratic president we did nothing, as today under a republican president we do nothing. The difference is that the Africans don’t want us there, I know this for a fact and until South Africa and the other countries get it together, we should not be there. The world has not moved on Dafur or Sudan at all, the world seems to be supporting the horrors in Zimbabwe and other places and I don't see them condemning African countries for their lack of concern but the US.

For me supporting Mandela in anyway was the biggest hypocrisy this country has even committed – I mean here is a guy who supported terrorism and killing of innocent women and children without hesitation and we make him into a saint. I remember the late 60’s and watching 60 minutes about the mining of the roads and killing of the farmers by the ANC. When he came here to raise funds, the same year the state department refused Arafat’s visa to speak in front of the UN, to me they were the same.

Also just to throw this in, the people who speak of the horrors of slavery and condemn our past as a country tend to forget that slavery is still a way of life in many countries in Africa. The thing is people don’t condemn these countries for their brutal and horrible practices and tend to forget that it takes their actions too to end things that they condemn us for.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I don't know greg..I just think that with to-days warfare technology and U.S $$$ Saddam could have been contained. At least Saddam kept Iran and Syria behaving. The U.S. and coalition could have then thrown all its resources into Afghanistan....and really go after the powerhouse of Bin Laden.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
“I just think that with to-days warfare technology and U.S $$$ Saddam could have been contained.â€

Yes, I agree with that, but remember in order for us to use the high tech warfare, we need to back it up as a unified nation, something we are failing to do.

“At least Saddam kept Iran and Syria behaving.â€

I actually think it was the other way around, Saddam had no control over these two countries and if they could have, they could have marched right into Baghdad. Just because Iran sort of lost the war, didn’t mean that they could have been a force if both Syria and Iran went after Iraq. Oh and remember that the Arabs of the region have had centuries of diplomatic practice in all kinds of different situations and they know to be patient and are opportunist – why commit yourself when others will do that and just wait until the fallout.

“The U.S. and coalition could have then thrown all its resources into Afghanistan....and really go after the powerhouse of Bin Laden.â€

Well there is a lot of truth to that, if I had the choice to decide, I would have focused on Afghanistan and cleaned house just as we did in Germany, but again I am being removed from a lot of facts.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
After all is said, whats done is done...now to get iraq back in working order and get our men and women troops outta there...I don't think a "perfect" solution is possible...
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Yes you are right, but to remember one great philosopher's comment; "there are no perfect solutions in war, politics or governments?" makes what you say about the best comment we can have.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Greg.. The Constitution reads "The Congress shall have power...to declare war, grant letters of margue and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water"

No where does the President singularly have the power to Declare War. The Constitution was created that way for a reason. The founding fathers had the wisdom not to let any one individual have such extra-ordinary powers over the country.
BUT ever since WW2 Congress has been weak and relaxed its powers. The U.S Supreme court also doesn't want to intervene between Congress and the President....So they've taken the teeth out of the Constitution by ignoring the very rules by which they were estabished ...Just because presidence has been set doesn't make it so....By your statement you've accepted this practice of end running the constitution for the "better good"??

BTW you referred to resolutions since the Spanish Wars...it doesn't make it right!!!

As Leo says Support the whole Constitution not just the parts that you like.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM,
I understand that you think I am saying that the president has the ultimate authority to declare war, that’s wrong. What I am saying is that they have in every case followed the constitution to declare war on a country, even in the case of a non-war like Korea and Vietnam.

The point that I am making in the case of Iraq which is the focus of many people; the rules were followed and the resolution was made and voted on correctly which has not been counter by any real constitutional scholars or the UN.

Now with all that said, I was forced to listen to Coast to Coast with George Noory and this discussion took place on the show. The theories that were thrown out on the show by the callers was just too far out for me to even get a grip on, I mean I feel that a lot of these people take the constitution as the only document that is used to govern the country and they never heard of the other things that are used, like the internal house and senate rules that have been well established or any of the codified resolutions/bills that are called titles (common term). What puzzles me is what is so important with this, where is this a show stopper for the world? I can’t see what difference there is with it now, we are already there and according to many – we are making more positive progress than what is reported.

After the Iraq is an illegal war segment, there was the collecting income taxes was the next segment and it was something else too. I don’t get the ‘facts’ of the ratification issue of 16th amendment, meaning the case that it was not ratified based on interpretation of the states response is rather farfetched and ludicrous. I mean listening to the guess’ and the host of the show, you would think that the entire process used over the ratification of the 16th amendment was actually something that was created at a bar late at night. The fact is at the time, the semantics of the response was not important, especially looking at the fact that we had at the time cultural and language differences within the US, the idea that one word was out of place or the punctuation was not correct to nullify the amendment is just stupid.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Greg..you must know I am just throwing things out there to get a grip on this left, right stuff....one side says this and one side says that...sometime in the future I am going to have to make up my mind what I think is right...what I am getting from you is now correct me if I am on the wrong trail....there is alot more to the constitution then the other side wants the common person to know...like resolutions amendmants, procedural stuff....But are those legal in the context of the Constitution ??? In the original constitution I can't find these articles of change????

You once said we have to show a position of strength to the enemy for them to at least respect us to some degree and here we have a President and Vice who APPEAR to be throwing every piece of garbage up to block investigations of Congress and doing things in an appearance of dictorial ways...The world is no longer laughing with us....And we won't even get into old Rummy....
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
“Greg..you must know I am just throwing things out there to get a grip on this left, right stuff....one side says this and one side says that...sometime in the future I am going to have to make up my mind what I think is right...â€

OVM, I understand that and I try like heck to confuse you, ah just kidding. It is a very good practice for a dialog.

“what I am getting from you is now correct me if I am on the wrong trail....there is alot more to the constitution then the other side wants the common person to know...like resolutions amendmants, procedural stuff....But are those legal in the context of the Constitution ??? In the original constitution I can't find these articles of change????â€

The constitution, in its form, is the governing document for all other laws, resolutions and the procedures. The thing is and everyone seems to forget this it that as it is written and the founding fathers intended, the states were supposed to have the ultimate power over their own destiny. This all changed with the war between the states and Lincoln’s forced expansion of the federal government. The other thing that is forgotten is that the laws that are passed by the voters were not suppsed to just beput forth to the courts on the federal level to determine constitutionality, something that the 10th amendment was some what to prevent dictating to the states, “provides that powers that the Constitution does not delegate to the United States and does not prohibit the states from exercising, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The sad fact is we don’t teach much of the constitution in the schools and people have no clue.

“You once said we have to show a position of strength to the enemy for them to at least respect us to some degree and here we have a President and Vice who APPEAR to be throwing every piece of garbage up to block investigations of Congress and doing things in an appearance of dictorial ways...The world is no longer laughing with us....And we won't even get into old Rummy....â€

Ok there is a situation where the congress is actually, in my eyes overstepping their bounds and going against the separation of powers clause in the constitution. The president should not have to answer to congress about things like firing civil servants (the lawyers who were fired) and alike. There is a need to demonize the administration and force issues that should be on the congress’ mind but are ignored. To put this in perspective, I would say the firing of a bunch of lawyers is not an issue, the removal of a district attorney, full disclosure of ‘classified’ documents in the case and the for expunging of the case against the two border guards, the deputy sheriff and the others who were doing their job to protect our country is the right thing to do, understand?

One issue that many seem to miss with the entire oversight thing is that congress is supposed to respond to certain things but not everything and they for some reason sold the people on a bill of goods to get elected and have done nothing.

As for the appearance of dictatorial ways, I would say that this administration has been on the front page for every little issue by the press and even the tax cuts that have helps a lot of us, is cast in the light that it was bad for everyone but the rich – far from it. We hear the negative stuff all the time, we hear and read all the hatred and division but truthfully, this president has been really no better on domestic issues than has Clinton or anyone else for that matter. On the international front, he has been a better leader than most, especially Clinton and truthfully as many would say otherwise, I think his rhetoric and attitude has spurred changes around the world to more from social appeasement to a swing to the right and more towards a good form of nationalism in many countries. What I mean is if you look at the policy changes going on around the world, like in France, you can see what we did three, four or 6 years ago.

As for the strength, take a careful look at the rhetoric coming out of the white house and see how that compares with the rhetoric from the mid 80’s, there is a message in this and the standing firm on some issues when it comes to the international scene.
 
Top