America no longer "Free Country"

Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
Since much of the talk on this forum centers around our recent losses in freedoms, this might be relevant:

"(April 6) -- How free is "mostly free"?

The Heritage Foundation, a self-described conservative think tank that espouses a free-market, small-government ideology, today released its annual Index of Economic Freedom World Rankings. And by its metrics, America's status has dropped from "free" to "mostly free."

Ranking countries throughout the world in 10 categories, the index concludes that the United States is now the eighth most economically free nation, down two spots from last year. Hong Kong ranked No. 1, while North Korea, which was categorized as "repressed," took the bottom rung.

Only seven countries actually rated as "free" on the index, which was released in conjunction with The Wall Street Journal (owned by conservative media mogul Rupert Murdoch, owner of News Corp.).

The largest factor in the Heritage Foundation's demotion of the U.S. is the rise in government spending, especially under the Obama administration.

"The national government's role in the economy, already expanding under President George W. Bush, has grown sharply under the administration of President Barack Obama, who took office in January of 2009," the report read. "Economic growth, which collapsed in 2008, had resumed by the second half of 2009, but legislative proposals for large and expensive new government programs on health care and energy use (climate change) have increased prospects for significant economic disruptions and raised concerns about the long-term health of the economy."

Beating out the United States in terms of economic freedom were, in descending order: Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland and Canada."

David Knowles
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Bush sucked but he wasn't nearly as bad as this disaster we have in there now. He would get maybe a C- rather than a big fat F like Obama.
 

mjolnir131

Veteran Expediter
Bush sucked but he wasn't nearly as bad as this disaster we have in there now. He would get maybe a C- rather than a big fat F like Obama.

I would say that's a fair evaluation, i would say for Bush-Clinton-Bush your looking at C to C- for all three wear in fact just average presidents. What and how you rate them could give one or the other a higher grade but none of them can brake or equal C+ or higher
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You guys are WAY too soft in grading presidents!! Reagan gets my highest grade with a C-. Carter and Obama an F. The Bushs and Clinton get D-.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The 16th has nothing to do with it, it is the presidential inauguration - March 4, 1913
Yeah ..... it's pretty funny too, when you consider the foreign policy positions of some folks (who would believe themselves to be on the opposite side of the political spectrum), regarding "spreading democracy", "exporting freedom", all manner of foreign meddling, and the like .... they don't even realize where (or who) that ideology comes from ..... :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yeah ..... it's pretty funny too, when you consider the foreign policy positions of some folks (who would believe themselves to be on the opposite side of the political spectrum), regarding "spreading democracy", "exporting freedom", all manner of foreign meddling, and the like .... they don't even realize where (or who) that ideology comes from ..... :rolleyes:


How can we spread democracy when we are not a democracy ourselves!! We are not that far to the right. Our republic, if it ran as it should, would be right down the center of the spectrum. We have moved quite far to the left and are approaching olagarchy or fascism.

Maybe we should have not messed the affairs of Europe between the years of 1941 and 87. That might have been good for everyone. Oh yeah, and just let Japan run amok after Pearl Harbor and let the Soviets take all of S.E. Asia and South America and Africa. I mean, after all, had we let them have it all there would be hundreds of million fewer people to be causing global warming. Then we could drive what ever we want too now.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That was a well written piece, OVM, but in all fairness, we cannot JUST blame Obama. Without a doubt he has accelerated a process that has been going on for decades. He does not even try to hide the fact that he is now completing the change from a market economy to one of pure marxism. Again, not new, the "PuppetMaster" has been working on this since before you and I were born.

We had better wake up. This country will suffer things that it should have just be reading about in history books. We will see Soviet style oppression. The very idea that our government is now going to use force to advance the scourge of socialism is new. The horror is now starting. We have one or two more chances to end it. IF we don't, millions will die.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM, Did you actually write this?

50% of hardworking Americans are paying 100% of the income taxes in this country.
So that the other 50% of Americans can become the new ‘Entitlement Class’. And that is not ageism, sexism or racism. That is a fact.


Really?



Yet it is true that 47% of the population of our country doesn't pay taxes, there is no NEW entitlement class nor are all the people who don't paid taxes are on welfare.

Look at the facts, many people who are in our population receive some sort of government subsidy or direct payment, which INCLUDES unemployment and other employment subsidies.


Maybe you should have watched Stossel last night, pretty interesting show about libertarians.

This is obscene and despicable to ALL Americans. A hand up, but not a hand out.


AND?


I don't think the majority of “Americans” have a problem with helping out, but most don't understand the correlation between the welfare state and freedoms. Most don't believe that we have had a second class group of citizens who have been enslaved since the 1960's and it is their belief that we should worry about what the other person has, not what they can have.

More debt is simply not sustainable and will most assuredly, lead to the death of the United States of America, the free market economy and most importantly….our Freedom.


Well the death of the free market will never happen until we as a world is enslaved and can't move without permission. The death of the US is another matter and is where the problem sits with the political machine AND the people. We as a country have gotten lazy, it is a reflection of western values and a reflection of most of the world around us.


But the problem is the idea that we can spend ourselves out of poverty while using methods that failed not just one country but several under the guise of Keynesian ecomonics. From the origin of this failed economic system, we can see where it is a failure and why. But more importantly the home country that it was created in was one of repression of free thought and speech which continues today.

Make no mistake, starving the Beast is going to hurt. And we’re going to take a beating.
And it’s going to leave a mark.


IRT write that?


It makes no sense of who we are going to starve or what the beast is unless we can consider the beast the American People. Then and only then can it become clear, removing the fog that has enveloped the problems to fool us into thinking there is absolute hope with one leader over another.

But I guarantee you when we come out on the other side, our nation will be a lean, mean, economic super power to be reckoned with.


You are joking?


If we have an implosion, there is no hope of being lean, mean or any economical super power, those days will be behind us without a doubt. We will lose and have lost for that matter our manufacturing assets, the very core of our foundation to weather any storm. Without our ability to be able to manufacture, to produce something tangible, we are a lost nation just like England in the 60's and 70's.

Maybe even our children and grandchildren will declare us the second, Greatest Generation to have saved THEIR nation.


Again you joking?


Like many of my generation, they will blame us for our laziness, stupidity but most of all our lack of fighting spirit. We need to be victims and our greed and selfishness has put us on this road. We didn't care 20 years ago, we don't care now what the debt will do to us in the near future because we are lazy as a nation.

Great Freedom requires even Greater Responsibility.


True but our freedoms have been redefined long before we came to this earth and our responsibilities were also redefined when we were young and naive.

In ourselves, in one another, in our allies around the world, in Humanitarian Care, in National Defense AND most importantly, in REAL fiscal responsibility.


Who are our allies?


What humanitarian care?


Fiscal responsibility?


All of those are not what we should be worrying about at this point. Accountability should be our first priority, then fixing the mess we allowed to happen. The world isn't going to stop with or without us so I would think getting our house in order is the first thing on the list.

Fiscal responsibility starts with the individual and only the individual. This is reflected by our inability to judge those who we send to congress to represent the people collectively. If we can't keep our own house in order, how can we expect to identify those who can't do the job for us in Washington. There is a reason why Dave Ramsey and Susan Orr are making millions, we failed to get off our a**es and be fiscal responsible.


If we don’t save ourselves from becoming Debt slaves now, then we won’t be able to save future generations of Americans from tyranny, fear, starvation and enslavement.


We are already Debt Slaves and have been since 1934.

Ronald Reagan was the Great Communicator. As he so eloquently spoke, “Government is not the solution, Government IS the problem.”


Sorry Reagan wasn't the first to say this, I think it was Jefferson. But regardless, the people are the problem, not the government. We already have the tools to limit government but refuse to use them.

Sadly POTUS Obama has become the ‘Great Enabler’. Mr. Obama has become the ‘irresponsible host’ who has kept pouring the liquor.


Replace Obama with Bush.

Mr. Obama claims these are problems that he ‘inherited’?
I believe that he raised $500 million to run for office and then begged for the job?


Get your facts straight, he didn't beg for anything, he used the people.


Yes he inherited the problems from the congress, not the previous administration. But with that said the republicans had from 1994 to 2006 as a majority in congress and didn't do much.

Yes, I believe POTUS Obama was born in Hawaii. No, I don’t believe he is the anti-Christ.
That’s Hillary. Maybe he’s the Manchurian Candidate?


I wish people would get over the birth thing, vetting process isn't so easiely fooled but the people are. Too many people have too much time on their hands to find blame with others for their own problems.

I believe that anyone who is elected to POTUS comes in fully aware of the responsibilities and the challenges. Or they should be.


D*mn right BUT the common person doesn't know what the job is all about and neither did Obama until December 2008.

From day one the President is either part of the solution or part of the problem. There are no excuses that go with that office.


BS, the congress is the deciding factor in all of this, they control the purse strings, not the president.

During the campaign POTUS Obama was opposed to requiring mandatory purchase of health care. Now mandatory purchase of health care has been passed?
Did he see the light and change his mind or did he just lie to us?


Get the facts straight, he is for a single payer system, anything outside of that is the road to the goal.

Layout, he is a marxist, but he is driving our country into fascism. It is basically all the same when you come down to it - all about power.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yes, Greg, he does seem to be leaning more towards fascism. It is an amazing mix of all things that are bad. He is taking the worst and combining them into a real horror. The final take over will use force, it may come sooner than many thing. Like a trumped up oil shortage, or a prolonged drought. Anything to let them "prove" the need of an all powerful government to "save" the people from the threat facing us. After all, the people just not able to fend for themselves.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Whew ... when I saw the POTUS thing, it was a flag that you were either moving back to Canada or that you were moving to NYC.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
How can we spread democracy when we are not a democracy ourselves!!
Well, theoretically :rolleyes: .... because we are a democratic republic or a representative democracy .... at least that was what the Founders seemed to have had in mind about what we are supposed to be ....

One can certainly argue to what extent the above is true at this point in time, and to what degree we have departed from what the Founders envisioned.

But a republican form of governance and democracy are not mutually-exclusive .....

The common retort by those on the right regarding the US really being a republic (as opposed to a democracy) is based on intentional oversimplification (or perhaps, just a lack of true understanding)

We are not that far to the right. Our republic, if it ran as it should, would be right down the center of the spectrum.
The center of what spectrum ?

The economic spectrum ?

The social spectrum ?

We have moved quite far to the left and are approaching oligarchy or fascism.
Actually, I think that you will find that most would consider fascism to be to the extreme, far right of the political spectrum, although it is certainly true that fascism contains aspects which derive from the left, as well as the right.

Here are a few diagrams to help put things into perspective:

Political_chart.jpg


European-political-spectrum.png


pol_matrix_pop.png
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That is not what I was taught in school. I was taught along the lines of a very good video that was once posted in here. I will look it up later. Have to run to the store first.

The fascism to the far right was an attempt by marxists to distance themselves from Nazi Germany.

What I was taught, prior to that rewrite was more like the following:

Far right to far left

Anarchy, democracy, republic, communism, fascism, olagarcy and dictatorship.

I think that is the correct order, I am trying to remember off the top of my head. I will look up that little video later.

Any who, that is how I was taught this back in the 1950's prior to the completion of the leftest take over of our education system.

Just another point of view.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
There's also a short little essay on the subject at the link below that is worth reading:

The Political Spectrum

Of particular note are a few of Ronald Reagan's words, in a speech (apparently there are a number of versions of it) in support of Barry Goldwater ..... they are worth knowing, and more importantly understanding. They are mentioned at the end of the article of above.

While I do not necessarily agree with all the sentiments and reasoning expressed in the remainder of the speech (specifically with regard to the Vietnam War), a video of the full speech can be seen here, with Reagan's words (quoted in the linked article above), in context:

Ronald Reagan - A Time For Choosing
 
Last edited:

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
What I was taught, prior to that rewrite was more like the following:

Far right to far left

Anarchy, democracy, republic, communism, fascism, olagarcy and dictatorship.

I think that is the correct order, I am trying to remember off the top of my head.
LOL .... what rewrite ?

By who ?

I'll assume that the above might be off as a consequence of memory (if yours is anything like mine :D), but the above as you present it, clearly has a lot of problems - the first being that a dictatorship doesn't inherently contain any left or right aspect - it is just a form of extreme authoritarianism.

Dictatorships can occur on either side of the political-economic spectrum, and could possibly take one or more forms (economic, social, etc.)

That's the biggest problem with trying to rank some of these things on a scale with only a single axis (left, right) - because the things one is seeking to illustrate can't be defined purely along a single axis, or any one particular aspect

I would say that the following scale is perhaps a little more accurate in practice, in terms of a scale from left to right (although not really, for the reason given above - you can't really scale them on a single axis scale) :

communism, socialism, democracy (either direct or respresentative , the latter being a republic), monarchy (limited and absolute, with the latter being further to the right than the former), fascism.

Of course, there are probably a few more flavors of "isms" and "ocracies" that one could throw in there on various places .....

One could say, that in terms of economics, a scale could be devised which contained communism on one end (say, the extreme left) and capitalism on the other (the extreme right)

Communism and capitalism as pure subjects, largely deal with economic matters ....

Anarchy is neither particularly left or right - the extent that it would be either, would depend entirely on how any specific anarchy operated in practice.

One could, in theory, have a communistic (or communitarian) anarchy just as easily as a capitalistic anarchy - since communism and capitalism, as pure subjects (as opposed to the way they have been practiced in the real world) deal largely with economics.

An oligarchy could appear (to some extent) anywhere on the above scale ... but it would be a subversion (or perversion) of wherever it occurred (ie. an apparency of a representative democracy, which is actually in reality, by large measure, an oligarachy .... some might say that is where we are at as a country, currently)

And a dictatorship could exist at the extremes - either the far left or the right.

I will look up that little video later.
Please do, I'd love to see it.

Any who, that is how I was taught this back in the 1950's prior to the completion of the leftest take over of our education system.
LOL .... not all portions of the education system have been taken over by the leftists ..... in fact, some would argue (and rightly so, in some instances) that portions of it have been taken over by the right (although to much less of an extent than by the left)

Believe it or not, there are a few people that can still think for themselves .... and have resisted indoctrination .... by either the left or the right ..... :rolleyes:

Just another point of view.
Here's another one:

The Political Compass

The above website contains a test which one can take which will score where an individual is at on The Political Compass and then plot that position on the first chart in my previous post (Left - Right, Authoritarian - Libertarian) - take it .... if you dare ... :D

One needs to just take the test (without reading much about it first) in order for it to be effective, and not have one's answers skewed.

As a point of interest, I'll tell you where it plotted me at:

dead in the center between Left and Right, with a -4.20 on the vertical scale (more libertarian than authoritarian) ..... and that was without even trying (and no cheating)
 
Last edited:

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Keep in mind that I did NOT go to public school until the tenth grade. I went to private school. Far different values and education ideals. I was taught self-suffiency until I went to public school where I was taught the "find a good job and be a drone" way of life. I hated that. Still do. Not lazy enough to be an Obama Bum. I will try to find that post now, I am so not good at that.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
BTW, just as a point of clarification, none of what I have posted above is anything that I was "taught in school" - a practice which could be considered to be, and is, in fact, at times, indoctrination (IOW, enforced learning - not entirely dissimilar to what Pavlov used to make the dog drool ....)

It is stuff that I have learned, on my own, through self-determined study, under my own volition, as a matter of educating myself - with no particular penalties attached from some outside determinism, for whatever conclusions I ultimately arrived at.
 
Last edited:
Top