$265,000 to welfare in a few years-

DannyD

Veteran Expediter
This is a true story of a friend of mine. I mean a good friend. I used to go his place to watch the Super Bowls, prize fights, playoffs, just to hang out, etc. It's not a story of a fall, but a story of a choice. Right or wrong, it shows the frustration level of people. This "tax the rich" crap is killing motivation to work. He would prefer his name not be used.

I met him in college. While we were in college he started a tax business, doing people's taxes. He started out slowly, like a lot of new businesses. He'd put flyers on the cars of the students & things of that nature promoting his business.

An ambitious kid, he didn't start out working for H&R Block like a lot of preparers do. He started out on his own right from the get go. He had originally brought this idea up to a group of us in college. His idea was to get 7 of us in college to open a tax accounting business.

Three of us, including me, had no interest. 3 of the others said that it was a great idea & lets get started. So my friend goes & does all the legwork to get it up & running. The other kids always had an excuse for why they weren't doing their part. Finally my friend asks one of em what's going on. The reply was "look, no one's going to want some college kid doing their taxes." Basically this guy was saying the 3 were backing out. My friend continued on.

So little by little he starts building up a tax business. You could see the progression. From working out of his parents home, to a small office, to a nice office, finally to working out of his own home, which was a nice house.

Since taxes are seasonal work, he decides to do something else during the rest of the year. So he gets into real estate. He figured he'd work 4 months doing taxes, 4 months doing real estate, & 4 months off. In real estate he stared out like chyt, but he persisted & eventually got good. He got good after about 4-5 years of it. I don't know the exact numbers, but the progression went something like this. The first 5 years he sold 1 or 2 houses each year. Year 6 he sold 8, year 7 he sold 19, year 8 he sold 42, until the last few years he was selling over 100 per year.

Yes, he was up to where he was selling a house almost every day he worked. He was able to do this because he had so many listings. He wasn't the kind who was going to try to actually sell the house. He wasn't going to waste his time driving window shoppers around. He got listings. He could sell. He got listings from people who promised it to their nephew if they ever sold thier house. When the going rate was 7% commission (not sure what it is now) he could have people paying an 8 or 9% commission because they thought their house would sell faster if the selling agent was going to get a 4 or 4.5% commission rather than a 3.5. In a lot of cases he was exactly right. I was over at his place more than once when a happy client would call & tell him what a great idea that 8% commission was.

In his office there were about 90 real estate agents. Take out my friend, who was #1, & the #2 guy & they sold more houses than the rest of the office combined. On a county level, all real estate offices of any sort, (Remax, Real Estate 1, Century 21, etc) & he was the #3 salesperson in the whole county. That's pretty good for a guy who 1) had no assistants (the top two had help) & 2) only worked 4 months out of the year.

He still kept the tax business though. He enjoyed it, plus during the winter in Michigan he didn't have to go out much unless he felt like it. People came to his house to get these done. In doing people's taxes he's finding out about their refunds, what they pay, dependents, just all kinds of personal information on people.

I'd like to say I saw the signs he was getting frustrated with things, but I didn't. He gave that all up to go on welfare. It took a little time. He had to get rid of his savings & such. Eventually he did it though.

When I asked him about it, what he said was interesting. He said he knew a lot of people would think he's an idiot. He said he didn't care. He was sick of paying for the lazyness of others. If they're not gonna work, why should he?

He's not a guy who swears. One of the things he said to me was loud & clear though. He said "I'm sick of paying for f'in Roger's (another friend of ours) kids!! I didn't have em, I shouldn't be responsible for em!!" He was referring to a friend of ours who got a massive tax refund yet didn't pay much in.

If that's the way our government is going to work, he's now going to be on the receiving end of things. He didn't make the rules, he's just playing by what's been laid out.

Yes, his house isn't as nice or as big, but it's livable & he's far from living in a slum. While the stuff he's got now isn't as nice as what he once had, it's more than enough to live on. He still has food, he still has shelter, he's doing fine.

He knows people will think he's become a leach on society. His side of it is that he feels he's already made enough money that he should be able to retire if he wants too, WITHOUT paying more taxes. He also feels that unlike most people on welfare who are on it all their lives, he's paid a helluva lot in & is just getting back some of his own money. As he said to me "dude, if I live to be 100 I'll still have put a lot more in than I got out."

Last but not least, if the tax system changes he'll get back to work. He doesn't feel like paying for wars he doesn't agree with, kids that aren't his, in general spending he doesn't agree with. He knows that most people who make what he used to wouldn't make the choice he did. He does think that if enough of them did though, that Washington would start to wake up.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Danny,
Don't take this wrong but your friend needs to get a life and learn life isn't fair.

SO what if he has a crisis with the reality of our tax system, it won't change so get over it.

If he wants to be a lazy a**, then he shouldn't be afforded the comfort of using a system that is intended not for those who can work but those who can't. He can work, he is capable of working so to me he is worse than those who are fighting to expand their take or those who expect the government to do for them what they can do for themselves.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
I also can see how someone would do this, but I'd be willing to bet that while he diversed himself of anything that the gov might be able to grab, he also hid as much as he could also...I haven't paid taxes in yrs, some of those yrs I did it within the boundaries of using the irs rules against them and to my advantage, other yrs, I simply just didn't pay...I took myself out of the system to a big degree. but while I did this, I still held onto my "stuff" and cash....and I would be willing to bet this is what he did....allowing him to legally become the welfare bum....

is he wrong? No one can answer that but himself...I understand it, but it isn't for me...but then stealing from the gov is done in alot of ways...and again each who does it has to decide for themselves whats right and whats wrong.....
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Why would you want to hide anything, the system works like this - assets are not taken into account for most. IT is only those who seem to shuffle between job/welfare who get flagged for asset disclosure.

But see Chef, if we all thought the way this guy thought, our country would be in a big mess beyond what we have today. His actions are greed and selfishness, not one of any concern to actually change something that can be changed. He speaks just like a liberal, worried about what the other guy has and not what he can achieve. The thought that he "put into the system and now wants it back" shows me the level of maturity on his part, which seems to be about third grade level. He forgets that his income tax doesn't directly go into a specific program or fund but into a general pool, even social security and from that, he enjoys everything from the protection of the military to using the highways in a safe car.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
...but then stealing from the gov is done in alot of ways...and again each who does it has to decide for themselves whats right and whats wrong.....

Chef,
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Stealing from he government is just plain wrong. Eveything they have is taxpayer funded. Therefor, IMHO, this kind of activity is stealing fom the taxpayers, and wrong! :mad:
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
GE paid how much in taxes last yr?? I can go back forvever and show you where companies have made literally millions in profits in one yr and paid nothing and even got tax money back in returns...money that was paid pay taxpayers..They use every advantage within the law and outside the law to do it, and more and more people do the same thing...you do realize that the tax codes are pushed to the limit and are actually made by those that will extend the limit of the law/code and then when questioned on it will justify and lobby to make changes in the codes to keep doing what they do...

When the fed, state and local govs start doing things the way they should (what is lawful and constitutional and within the bounds of their indidviual charters) then you will see more people willing to pay taxes instead of working to avoid them..until then, me and millions of others will continue to be as aggressive in not paying taxes as the irs is in using the force of the gov to collect them....
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
The more companies and persons take the self centered 'it's all about me' approach, the worse shape the country is in. Those who can afford to hire professionals [necessary in most cases] to find the loopholes and advise on strategies ARE stealing from those who do pay taxes. The nonpayers benefit from the services and infrastructure paid for by taxpayers, do they not?
Nobody likes the way their tax money is spent, I bet - we all have some program or area we'd like to see 'defunded', that's not a legitimate excuse for refusal to pay your fair share of the cost of government, IMO.
If the tax system is wrong [and it is, no question], then work to get it fixed!
Supreme irony: sneer at those who 'take' from the government in the form of welfare, unemployment, food stamps, then admit to 'taking' by not contributing anything.
Excellent example of patriotism, innit?
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
No one said a thing about it being patriotic at all..and those that take advantage of how the rules are written (and yes I pay for that expert advice) aren't doing anything that anyone else shouldn't be doing...it is those peoples fault that others can't afford to use the rules to their advantage?

When the rules change (as they do yearly) the professionals do the work to use them to their clients advantage...nothing wrong or illegal, all within the why the system works...

And yes, when it comes to profits, be it corporate or individual, paying the shareholders or keeping as much of your own money as you can, you are right, it is all about me.....and I make no excuses about...as the corporation that pay their share holders profits on their investments also don't make excuses for it, they continue to look for more ways to make more profit....it is the American Way...so yea, I guess it is kinda "Patriotic"....:D

No Irony at all, go back and look at most of the post that I (can't speak for others) post about taxpayer money being misused, I normally (but probably not in every case) use the words "those of you paying taxes"..or words to that affect...but again, probably not in all cases, but most....:)

PS: In the post that I asked how much in Taxes did GE pay, that was not a complaint at all...if they and all of the other corporations that done pay any taxes are doing it within the scope of the tax code...more pwer to them, and millions of other and I will continue to do the same thing.....as everyone should.....There is no reason to pay anymore to the irs then you need to, thats why the tax codes are there..t use as a guide and to use to figure what you eed to pay or not....
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Many I knew when I lived in England "fought" the "taxman". The taxes there were quite high when I first arrived. Once theirs wages went beyond a certain point it no longer paid them to work. It would all go to taxes. SO, once they reached a certain wage for the week they would shut down their business and go fishing. They kept more and came out ahead that way.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
When companies pay taxes, we pay the bill for them through higher prices of their product and services.

Cheri, no one has yet explained the reality of the words fair share. I feel people like Gates and Buffet have reached a level of wealth that they can give most of it up, they have yet to help a single person I know but are willing to give to foundations and such that don't (to use a bad term) give back to the country that allowed them to make their fortune in the first place.
 

DannyD

Veteran Expediter
Greg-

I posted it knowing full well some people wouldn't like what he did. I'm fine w/ your response & nothing taken wrong.

I tend to agree w/ what Dennis said below in that it's not for him but he can understand it.

Danny,
Don't take this wrong but your friend needs to get a life and learn life isn't fair.

SO what if he has a crisis with the reality of our tax system, it won't change so get over it.

If he wants to be a lazy a**, then he shouldn't be afforded the comfort of using a system that is intended not for those who can work but those who can't. He can work, he is capable of working so to me he is worse than those who are fighting to expand their take or those who expect the government to do for them what they can do for themselves.
 

DannyD

Veteran Expediter
This part I disagree w/. Gates & Buffet earned their money & it should be theirs to do as they see fit. If they want to bury it in their backyard & take it out of circulation that's their right.

Gates has donated computers. He furnished them for a few high schools in this area. Whether that was through his foundation or what have ya I'm not sure. I don't know his finances, but I've got to believe he's been responsible for more donations than just a few computers.

Either way though, it's his money & he should be the one deciding how it's spent.

Cheri, no one has yet explained the reality of the words fair share. I feel people like Gates and Buffet have reached a level of wealth that they can give most of it up, they have yet to help a single person I know but are willing to give to foundations and such that don't (to use a bad term) give back to the country that allowed them to make their fortune in the first place.
 

DannyD

Veteran Expediter
I can see this point of view. I can also see my friends.

The more companies and persons take the self centered 'it's all about me' approach, the worse shape the country is in.

I agree here.


Those who can afford to hire professionals [necessary in most cases] to find the loopholes and advise on strategies ARE stealing from those who do pay taxes.

Don't agree here. I think they're using the rules that are laid out & playing by them. To me those that don't find the loopholes aren't being as efficient as those who are.


The nonpayers benefit from the services and infrastructure paid for by taxpayers, do they not?
Nobody likes the way their tax money is spent, I bet - we all have some program or area we'd like to see 'defunded', that's not a legitimate excuse for refusal to pay your fair share of the cost of government, IMO.

The big Q here is "what's your fair share?" Wouldn't someone who's already paid a few hundred thousand have paid enough? For instance, should it cost more to have trash picked up in an affluent area than an urban one? It's the same job. "Fair share" in that case should be that the two households pay the same amount.

Should an affluent household pay more for schools? I think yes. The schools tend to be better, have better teachers, & so on.

Should an affluent household pay more for police? Probably not. Generally they're not going to need the same protection.

I agree with everyone paying their fair share. I'm just not sure what that "fair share" works out to be.


If the tax system is wrong [and it is, no question], then work to get it fixed!
Supreme irony: sneer at those who 'take' from the government in the form of welfare, unemployment, food stamps, then admit to 'taking' by not contributing anything.

In his case he's contributed quite a bit. His view is he's getting some of his overpayment back. Whether he's right or not is opinion. Again, like Dennis said it's not for me but I can understand where he's coming from.

Excellent example of patriotism, innit?
 

DannyD

Veteran Expediter
I can absolutely see this. I'm just throwing out numbers here but I'm guessing this is the idea. If you make $499 per week you pay $100 in taxes. If you make $500 per week you pay $200 in taxes. So why would anyone in their right mind make $500 unless you can go way past that?


Many I knew when I lived in England "fought" the "taxman". The taxes there were quite high when I first arrived. Once theirs wages went beyond a certain point it no longer paid them to work. It would all go to taxes. SO, once they reached a certain wage for the week they would shut down their business and go fishing. They kept more and came out ahead that way.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I can absolutely see this. I'm just throwing out numbers here but I'm guessing this is the idea. If you make $499 per week you pay $100 in taxes. If you make $500 per week you pay $200 in taxes. So why would anyone in their right mind make $500 unless you can go way past that?

That is the idea only it was WAY worse in England at that time. IF I remember correctly the top rate then, 1976, was 98%. That is when Margret Thatcher had to fight to get it lowered.

Even the Beatles got fed up with the crushing taxes and they were NOT exactly a conservative bunch to say the least.


One, two, three, four...
Hrmm!
One, two, (one, two, three, four!)

Let me tell you how it will be;
There's one for you, nineteen for me.
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

Should five per cent appear too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

(if you drive a car, car;) - I’ll tax the street;
(if you try to sit, sit;) - I’ll tax your seat;
(if you get too cold, cold;) - I’ll tax the heat;
(if you take a walk, walk;) - I'll tax your feet.

Taxman!

'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

Don't ask me what I want it for, (ah-ah, mister Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more. (ah-ah, mister heath)
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

Now my advice for those who die, (taxman)
Declare the pennies on your eyes. (taxman)
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

And you're working for no one but me.

Taxman!
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
This part I disagree w/. Gates & Buffet earned their money & it should be theirs to do as they see fit. If they want to bury it in their backyard & take it out of circulation that's their right.

Gates has donated computers. He furnished them for a few high schools in this area. Whether that was through his foundation or what have ya I'm not sure. I don't know his finances, but I've got to believe he's been responsible for more donations than just a few computers.

Either way though, it's his money & he should be the one deciding how it's spent.

I would think that this would be a good thing for them to do but it is limited to a few things and they focused on handing money out as part of an institution which means the individual is left out.

IF I need a computer, they don't want me to ask for one but to go through United Way or some other organization to "qualify" for one. IF my school needs software, they can't solicit for that software directly.

On the other hand we make allowances for people like Gates, Buffet and others when it comes down to their money by justifying it is only their money at the same time it is our system that allows them to make the money in the first place. Buffet specifically has called to raise taxes for all of us while taking advantage of the tax code to buffer himself against paying taxes. Gates is the same situation and so are a lot of others.

They dumped money into foundations so not to pay anything in taxes, Gates does a lot of world stuff while Buffet is giving money to the UN - forget the people here in this country where they made their fortune.

This isn't a liberal thoughts that I have but rather looking back at our history and seeing people like Carnegie and Morgan, Ford and Mellon all who amassed a huge fortunes actually do some good with the money. We all have to thank Carnegie for our libraries, if it wasn't for him many small and midsized towns would not have a library. We have Mellon gave the nation his art collection and money to start the National Art Museum. Morgan did a lot to help people out by lending them money to start businesses and Ford introduced a who system of taking care of the workers and he would also help people out when they had problems.

Buffet and Gates have done nothing in comparison for the nation, they seem to have taken on the need to be Global Contributers instead.

With a lot of cities libraries faltering, how much have Gates given to them directly - not a penny.
 

BillChaffey

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Navy
Regarding your friends Real Estate Career. IF he was #3 producer in the Country he's missing something if his compensation was only $265,000.00. Plus I doubt if he gave away his foutune:p I'm sure it's available to him somewhere.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yeah, if he was to the point of selling a house a day, then he could retire as independently wealthy after about a year of that.
 
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