You should all be ashamed of yourselves

[EASYTRADER]

There are a couple of good contemporary books on the US's involvement in the middle east, which most of you would be suprised to find out about what we've really been doing there.

Charlie Wilsons War, I forget the author

Sleeping With The Enemy, Robert Bauer ex-cia

I would read them in that order too, C.W.W. is more entertaining and mostly about afganistan, but when yur done with it you'll be wondering "what's the point?"

The read Sleeping with the Enemy, and you'll get the point.

 

[mjmsprt40]

I was out when all this happened, only got back a few hours ago. I guess I'll have to be guilty after the fact for saying nothing on a thread I probably wouldn't have opened anyway, and which-- if it's the one I think it is-- is now locked, anyway.

 

[RLENT]

Please DO give us all one (or many) rezone why not to categorized you as an Antisemitic.

Because I don't hate, nor am I against, Semites generally, and Jews specifically ...

I was very fortunate to be raised by a couple of parents who took a very dim view of both racism and religious bigotry ... and who had a number of Jewish friends, employees, and business associates. Since I grew up working in that business (since age 11) I didn't grow in some sort of anti-semitic isolation bubble - I had contact and exposure to the Jewish people at a relatively early age ... and was quite fortunate to count these individuals among my friends ...

I never knew these individuals to be anything other than good and decent people.

after all you just trying your very best to give Christians as many rezone as you can to HATE Jew's.

Not at all ...

The fact of the matter is that there is never a shortage of "reasons" to hate any race, religion, or people ... if that is what one truly desires to do ...

I much prefer just to try to understand rather than hate.

Having said that, I make no secret of the fact that I - like the Haredim in the videos I posted - detest and condemn some (most ?) of the actions of the State of Israel and look unfavorably on the ideology of Zionism ...

I think that both subjects are worthy of honest, open discussion and debate - outside of the confines of the political correctness that fanatical Zionists (whether they be Jew or Christian or something else) would like to impose.

If one is a Zionist, who absolutely thinks the modern State of Israel can do wrong whatsoever, then one might not view me in anything approaching a favorable light.

That's an individual call yours and others to make.

a photo of a nice check to one of the many Christians organizations that fight Antisemitism will be a start.

Yeah ... that just ain't gonna happen .... based on what my general understanding and perception is of which groups you are referring to ...

I would be more inclined to support an inter-faith group which seeks to stand and speak for justice for the Palestinians and condemns the oppression that they are currently under, while advocating right of all people - regardless of race, color, or creed - to live freely in peace with one another.

 

[EASYTRADER]

Rlent,

I think you'll get over it. The Jews and Mohameddans are at this point engaging in "mutual" combat.

For evry zionist you know, there is at least one Caliphatist, probally more as Muhamedans out number Jews by 10 to 1 at least.

They will as I said bfore probly just nuke the hell out of each other as soon as Iran developes the bomb, which they will thanks to our Caliphatist President.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using EO Forums

 

[skyraider]

I looked up Palinstinian manufacturing of goods and service. Ugh,, lets just say there is nil to none. No tires Mfg, no Square D , no Cutler Hammer, no Dodge gearboxes, no head pulleys, no 4 bolt bearing plants, contactors, compressors, lightning fixtures, toilets, tubs, lawn and garden , pumps, no railroads, no locomotive foundries, not copes or drags, chain hoist, no stamping or forging of metal parts, no lamp assembly plants, no brake parts, no , and no and nooooo Wally Worlds. Now that said..................do you really want them to be like us, helll yes, and then they would be so busy trying to get ahead they would be as confused as we are and problem solved. IMHO

So boys and girls, without smokestacks and capitalization and good old factory stuff, u got sand baggers and rock throwers. I wonder if the major baseball bunch in America has recruited any of them yet.

 

[cheri1122]

Please DO give us all one (or many) rezone why not to categorized you as an Antisemitic.

Pointing out where Israel is guilty of bad behavior [same as Palestine] is not antiSemitic - it's reality.

after all you just trying your very best to give Christians as many rezone as you can to HATE Jew's .

You think people "hate Jews" because they believe Israel is equally guilty of prolonging the bloodshed? That's the same as Europeans hating Americans because they don't like what the POTUS has done - the people aren't responsible for policy decisions.
The conflicts of the Middle East may never be resolved - but if we continue to insist that it's entirely one sided, it hasn't a chance of happening.

a photo of a nice check to one of the many Christians organizations that fight Antisemitism will be a start.

Attempting to inject reason into the debate would be a better start, and that, he has done. How about continuing it?

 

[moose]

Excepting your challenge, Cherri. (internet connection depending!)
as many of you probable noticed i did my very best to keep it 'on the subject' rather then make it personal. that's why i did not responded to the personal attack, am a moose ,so have a big shoulders, and most impotently have the winning argumentative points on my side !(believe it or not).
what i do not have is AMPLE time to spend here on EO making those points.
but lets start with a recap.
on "the Other thread" the poster made a valid point. i had no problem what so ever with that. it was actually very interesting. all but the last few paragraphs.
let me try this.
there a Blue plate.
the Blue plat cause allergy to some.
over the last few decades we understood that.
the point been made is that Christianity used to use the blue plate,
and now here is the blue plate on the table,
and when you mixed the blue with Yellow, you get this new nice Green plate.
here the green plat, which is a much better plate.
Christians loves the green plate.
my problem was with the placing of the the Blue plate on the table for everyone to see.
which is why i shouted in this thread
THERE'S A BLUE PLATE ON THE TABLE , THERE'S A BLUE PLATE ON THE TABLE, CAN'T ANYONE SEE THAT THERE'S A BLUE PLATE ON THE TABLE ?

 

[moose]

To continue answering your question, my requests to 'give us a rezone' was NOT personal, was a result of above posts, and i think was answered very very well.
too often we see peoples mixing "Anti-Zionism", with "Antisemitism".
this is a bad road to travel. clearly here in America we have way too many that travel this road.
Israel is the homeland of the Jewish peoples. it is NOT a Jewish state. one out of 5 citizen of Israel is not even Jew.
this is one of the many rezone why America can, and is, so devoted to Israel. we are the # one beneficiary of such state in that part of the world. Miss. Susan Rice addressed to the UN this week made it VERY clear.
before her speech i sent her 2 emails, noting that am a Minnesota voter, and asked her to protect American interests in that part of the world.
earlier today, i sent another one thanking here for doing exactly that .
you can all do the same :
Contact Us
or you can seat here and complain. i choose to make my voice herd. i routinely tell my representative what to do. they normally ignore me, but it's a 'feel good'.

 

[moose]

i have to strongly disagree with this statement :
"The conflicts of the Middle East may never be resolved - but if we continue to insist that it's entirely one sided, it hasn't a chance of happening."

for the last 40 years Israel routinely had a workable solution "on the table".
America play a CRUCIAL roll in providing the template in which a 'long lasting peace' can be achieved. for the past 4 years Israel had numerous peach solution. right now as we speak, Israel have 2 (that's 2) offers standing.
the problem is that the Palestinian side is routinely UNWILLNG to seat down and talk. they are simply not interested in either talking with Israel nor solving this problem.
many in Israel believe that the middle east conflict can, and will be solved soon. Israel is and always was willing to make hard compromised to resolved this problem and always stated that all of the hard core issues are workable, and was willing to negotiate EVERY Palestinian claim. yes that include ALL of the claims.
back in late 2006PrimMinnister Ahod Olmert was willing to simply hand over 98% of all territorials claim by the Palestinians, and to vacate much of Israel settlements in the Yehoda&Somron areas, including a massive immigrations of Palestinians, Jerusalem compromised and so on..more then any PM ever. the Palestinian authority simply refused to seat down and talk. PM Benyamin Netanyahoe repeatedly stated Israel agreements to go even further.
all Israel ask is for a partner in peace.

looking at this weeks happening make NO dough what so ever that the Palestinians asking for war. Israel is handing a hand asking for peace ,and the Palestinians are cutting the fingers off of that hand. it is in fact the Palestinians that are aiming to war.
IF/When the Palestinians are interesting in a peace, they know Hillery's # where they can get it.
Looking at the week before event's make NO dought who is protecting the Palestinians civilians in the Gaza strip. ( the IDF and the Pentagon).
sorry IT IS one sided . Israel always asked for no more then peace, the Arabs never excepted Israel's offer.
America choose very well by siding with Israel.

 

[moose]

First off, it's just a majorly retarded question straight from the get-go ... but fairly typical for you ...

Why should anyone have to allocate some of their land for a certain people who are from and reside elsewhere ... simply because a number of folks from far off lands have decided they themselves want sole ownership and possession of the homeland of said people ?Because it is was the right thing to do.


No - they do want peace ... but they aren't willing to allow themselves to robbed and dispossessed of their own lands to simply to achieve it, as a subjugated people.So how-come they repeatedly unwilling to go back to the negotiation table? the ONLY way a peace can be achieved is by talking with Israel, rather then forcing Israel out. the Palestinians are not seeking a statehood, they seek the elimination of Israel. "the Arab are the same Arabs, and the sea is the same sea" {a former Israeli PM, related to elsewhere in this thread}.sorry


Ignorant and highly uninformed - witness the ugly face of fanatical, anti-Christian Zionism:

Graffiti sprayed on a church in Latrun in September reads "Jesus is a monkey" and the names of two West Bank settlements. (Menahem Kahana / AFP/GettyImages)


Israeli settlers increase their attacks on Palestinian Christian sites | The Electronic Intifada

don't eat before or during reading this next statement.
i have to agree with Ralent on this one.
Israel should do much better in protecting Christians sites under it's jurisdiction. there's no excuse for allowing the wide spreading of such actions. Israel should have prevent this from happening. and needs to bring those CRIMINALS to justice. there should be no tolerance for an attack on ANY religious place.
Israel should stop the peoples behind "Price Tag". actually they did just that. those Extremists are subject to brutal harassment by the Israeli military. they are questions repeatedly, orders away from their homes many times, separated from their family's, faced judges and jailed. many parts of the Israeli settlers are facing same level of harassment's by Israeli authority's.
unfortunately, Israel is the hollyland, and therefor home for thousands of religious places. Israel secretary of religious matters have many many different religious under it's responsibility's.
Unfortunately, for the Ralent, the above posts have been taking out of content . clearly this attack was NOT aimed at Christianity, but rather a local political statements.
what led to this attack was the Israeli supreme court order to evacuate 3 LEGAL settlements. "Migron" Ma'Os" and "Ester". those names are the ones to the left of the priest. some of the founding for the long expensive court actions came from a christian Arabic village claiming ownership on one location. same claimed have been made in other locations, including the eastern part of the city of Jerusalem, where this crime took place. {in fact noways there are pending court orders in many places around the world claiming ownership of Christians locations inside the state of Israel base on religious matters.just one more thing the state of Israel needs to face.} despite not been able to prove ownership. the Israeli supreme court order the evacuations of all 3 locations.
the Gov. of Israel follow the court order and the 3 locations have been evacuated in recent months.
this happening resulted in new legislation in the Israeli parliament, limiting the authority of the court system to rule over national and political issue. another part of the law require the supreme court to avoid ruling on issues that are not legally clear, and instructed the court to request guides from the legislative branch. 2 decades ago, the former head of the supreme court made a statement "everything is Judgeble". since then the supreme court became the policy maker on everything regarding politics. the events related to the unlawful evacuations of "Migron" made a stop to that.

 

[davekc]

i have to strongly disagree with this statement :
"The conflicts of the Middle East may never be resolved - but if we continue to insist that it's entirely one sided, it hasn't a chance of happening."

for the last 40 years Israel routinely had a workable solution "on the table".
America play a CRUCIAL roll in providing the template in which a 'long lasting peace' can be achieved. for the past 4 years Israel had numerous peach solution. right now as we speak, Israel have 2 (that's 2) offers standing.
the problem is that the Palestinian side is routinely UNWILLNG to seat down and talk. they are simply not interested in either talking with Israel nor solving this problem.
many in Israel believe that the middle east conflict can, and will be solved soon. Israel is and always was willing to make hard compromised to resolved this problem and always stated that all of the hard core issues are workable, and was willing to negotiate EVERY Palestinian claim. yes that include ALL of the claims.
back in late 2006PrimMinnister Ahod Olmert was willing to simply hand over 98% of all territorials claim by the Palestinians, and to vacate much of Israel settlements in the Yehoda&Somron areas, including a massive immigrations of Palestinians, Jerusalem compromised and so on..more then any PM ever. the Palestinian authority simply refused to seat down and talk. PM Benyamin Netanyahoe repeatedly stated Israel agreements to go even further.
all Israel ask is for a partner in peace.

looking at this weeks happening make NO dough what so ever that the Palestinians asking for war. Israel is handing a hand asking for peace ,and the Palestinians are cutting the fingers off of that hand. it is in fact the Palestinians that are aiming to war.
IF/When the Palestinians are interesting in a peace, they know Hillery's # where they can get it.
Looking at the week before event's make NO dought who is protecting the Palestinians civilians in the Gaza strip. ( the IDF and the Pentagon).
sorry IT IS one sided . Israel always asked for no more then peace, the Arabs never excepted Israel's offer.
America choose very well by siding with Israel.

Ummm...maybe not.
One seems to be upping the other.


Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton met senior Israeli and Palestinian officials Friday, with each side locked in a pattern of actions that the United States had expressly warned against: the Palestinians winning U.N. recognition of their claim to a state on Thursday and the Israelis retaliating Friday by approving 3,000 new homes on Israeli-occupied territory.

Not real smart if peace is the objective. They currently occupy the land but that isn't the motive.

Whole article
US struggles to get Israel, Palestinians to talks | Fox News

 

[moose]

Rabbi Dovid Feldman speaks out against the atrocities in Gaza in front of the Israeli Consulate in NYC:

http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/soapbox/56499-you-should-all-ashamed-yourselves-4.html#adbox03
this is a very ironic post.
obviously, as you can clearly see those are not just every day "Chassidim". according to their outfit this are "Neturei Karta" .
this part of the Jewish tradition is an important part of the very versed 21st century Jewish culture. Neturei Karta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
however. from my personal knowledge, having a part of the family belong to "Neturei Karta", i can tell that the Wikipedia description miss a significant part of the origins and beliefs of Neturei Karta.
while it is correct that Neturei Karta separated from other parts of the Jewish tradition. that go's back many century's in time. actually all the way till 1,492. an important date in Jewish tradition. that's when the very large, productive part of Jew's that used to lived and prosper in Spain, were ordered to "convert/die/or leave"*. one of the darkened time in Jewish/ Christianity relations. many of the Jew's opted out to immigrate to central eastern Europe. while some immigrated to the land of Israel.
this was also the end of the "Ctovim" the bounded part of Jewish tradition.
a short time later as the new immigrants settle both in Israel and in the "golah" {any other place BUT Israel} an philosophical argument began as to the 'duty' of the orthodox.
there are many philosophical aspects of that argument.
for once, Jewish duty's {Mitzvah} separate to 3 , -between man and God, -between man and man, and -between man and ground.
Neturei Karta have a very interesting POV regarding the last part.
the rezone i tell all of this 'stuff' is to try and place it in constant to the remaining issue from post # 40, where it talk about the ripping of the New Testimony by an Israeli parliament member. - a shameful event. this is where the * mark comes in {die/leave/or convert},that member specifically opposed Neturei Karta ideology, claiming that the events of 1,492 prove the needs of an independent Jewish state to be the place of last resort for the Jewish peoples.
ironically, now that we understands where Neturei Karta comes from,
it place those 2 posts at an opposite side of the stick.
you simply can't claim that Israel is in the wrong because it's providing a place of last resort for the Jewish peoples, and at the same time say that Israel is in the wrong because it's exists.
still Neturei Karta are by definition anti-Zionists. there for there's no surprised with the original video. personally i find Neturei Karta to be very fascinating.

 

[layoutshooter]

Good luck Moose. This is a sound bite nation. Trying to go back centuries to understand today's problems is an idea not taught in many schools.

Our perspective of the problems there is limited. Most tend to blindly accept what they are told or lay blame where it only belongs in a limited way.

No government can be trusted, none. All have sinned and continue to do so. To blame only the US, Israel, or Arab nations will not work. It is a far too narrow a minded view. The blame lies with human frailty and greed.

Rest assured, you are always welcome in my truck or home.

 

[moose]

and the Israelis retaliating Friday by approving 3,000 new homes on Israeli-occupied territory.we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. i don't see the building of new homes to expand existing city's as an act of retaliation, it is an act of ticking up the peace talks clock. just because Israel build, dose NOT mean that it will stay there. all the Palestinians needs to do is seat down, talk, and resolve the conflict. the longer THEY wait - the more homes to evacuate - the more Israel have 'to give'- the more the Palestinians will have to give.
recent history showed us that Israel is more then willing to evacuate. by building those apartments, Israel in fact tells the Palestinian authority that they can come back and negotiate, the sooner the better for them

. They currently occupy the land but that isn't the motive.

I'd rather call it Yehodah&Somron ,if you don't mind. it is at best a disputed area,not occupy. the present of IDF in those area can be a thing of the past, once a dispute is resolved in direct negotiation. until then, it is a part of Israel. see "the Oslo agreement".

 

[davekc]

I'd rather call it Yehodah&Somron ,if you don't mind. it is at best a disputed area,not occupy. the present of IDF in those area can be a thing of the past, once a dispute is resolved in direct negotiation. until then, it is a part of Israel. see "the Oslo agreement".

That may be. Not even disputing that. But lets call it what it is. It is retaliation plain and simple.
That in of itself is not a path to peace.
No need to complicate the simple.

 

[mjmsprt40]

I'm going to save being ashamed of myself for things I'm actually guilty of. The stuff that goes on in the Middle East is way above my pay grade, and being caused by people I have no control whatsoever over. The very most I could do would be to write a letter to those responsible, but since the likelihood is that the letter would be wadded up and thrown into the nearest trashcan (or deleted) it's hard to see how any letter I could write would avail much.

I don't do communal guilt well.

 

[layoutshooter]

"I don't do communal guilt well."


Neither do I. I am ONLY responsible for my own actions. PERIOD. That is why I am sickened by Obama's world wide apology tours. If HE feels he is responsible, he can apologize for himself. He has NO right to apologize for me. I will apologize for what I believe I have done wrong. I don't need sniveling cowards taking on that role for me.

 

[RLENT]

Ummm...maybe not. One seems to be upping the other.

Absolutely "maybe not"

We - as a nation - shouldn't be choosing sides at all.

Various of the Founding Fathers warned us - repeatedly - about avoiding "entangling foreign alliances" due to the risks and dangers they inherently contain ... our (largely) unqualified and unrestricted support for Israel is a textbook example of such.

If anything we should be acting as an "honest broker" - favoring or disfavoring neither side, but acting to bring both together to resolve their differences.

Even that course of action contains a fair degree of peril - since whatever positions or actions we might take in such an effort could be perceived by one or both sides (or others) as favoring or disfavoring one or the other.

There is an additional danger in acting in the manner that we do and that is by engaging ourselves in the matter and spending our own political capital on it ... and then consequently failing ... we demonstrate to parties involved - as well as the remainder of the world - just how little power we actually have.

The recent UN vote to upgrade Palestine's status is not only a communication to the Palestinians (and the Israeli's) ... but also to the US ... in terms of what the remainder of the world thinks with regards to our admonitions to vote other than they actually did.

It was a big "Chuck you, Farley" ...

Not real smart if peace is the objective. They currently occupy the land but that isn't the motive.

Israeli's intent has long been to subjugate the Palestinians under Israeli rule ... or failing that, to drive them off the land ... into diaspora ...

Israel Authorizes Controversial New Settlements in Revenge for Palestine’s UN Bid

The location of the new settlements are intended to break the contiguity of Palestinian territory in the West Bank, negating two-state solution

by John Glaser, November 30, 2012

Print This | Share This

Following the overwhelming UN vote for implicit recognition of Palestinian statehood, Israel has authorized the construction of 3,000 more housing units in East Jerusalem and the West Bank and is also speeding up the processing of 1,000 additional planning permissions.

According to the New York Times, the bulk of the new housing units are set to be built “in a controversial area of East Jerusalem known as E1, where Jewish settlements have long been seen as the death knell for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


”Other parts of the construction projects will connect Jerusalem and the illegal Jewish settlement of Maale Adumim, and “therefore make it impossible to connect the Palestinian cities of Ramallah and Bethlehem to Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem.”

Connecting Jerusalem to Maale Adumim “will create geographical continuity between the capital and its northern suburb, a move that the US and European countries have warned against,” Haaretz reported.

The Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refused to comment on the decision, but many observers view it as a deliberate impediment to the the two-state solution, in revenge for the Palestinians’ peaceful diplomatic efforts to national self-determination at the UN, which was supported by an overwhelming international consensus.

Israel, and especially the administration of Benjamin Netanyahu, simply refuses to accept a Palestinian state. Their efforts, including this latest settlement authorization, to colonize Palestinian territory and undermine the viability of a Palestinian state is representative of their refusal to give up the prospect of a Greater Israel with full sovereignty over all of historic Palestine.​

Israel Authorizes Controversial New Settlements in Revenge for Palestine’s UN Bid -- News from Antiwar.com

The links embedded in the article above tell a far different tale than what some are trying to portray ... particularly the next to the last one, which details the thinking of Bibi's father, Benzion, with respect to the "Palestinian problem" ... and what he sees as it's "Final Solution" ...

 

[RLENT]

That may be. Not even disputing that. But lets call it what it is. It is retaliation plain and simple.
That in of itself is not a path to peace.
No need to complicate the simple.

There is every need to complicate the simple ... when one is trying to spin circumstances into something other than what they actually are ...

 

[skyraider]

Here is some very old info on property rights involving Israel. It is what it is and as usual open to interpretation. In America, to the best of my knowledge, the original peoples here called the American Indian had some land problems . I think that some white folks were building settlements on Indian land, hmmm, I could be wrong on that. Ut oh, Harry and Nancy are calling me,,will get back to ya , good day.

What is the land that God promised to Israel?