The Plastic Chair

[davekc]

Well....I hate to see you sitting there Phil. It is certainly frustrating.
Now.....another reality check.

The fault could lie in several places but the reality is many carriers (mine included) are charging between 125 and 300 per hour detention to have you sitting. There is no incentive on the part of the carrier to do much of anything.
This is a carrier bonus if you will.
They are cashing in and laughing at you sitting there in the "white chair".
If, and that is a big if, if we go to Canada we negotiate these terms up front. No bargaining after the fact.
The border has changed considerably, and unless these arrangement aren't met upfront, we don't bother.
Better money can be had long before fooling around with going into Canada.

 

[ATeam]

Customs Paperwork is not that hard to do once you have been showed how to do it the right way.

The steps, checks and double checks you list are the kind that are in the driver's control. We do the same things. The problems we have encountered at the border are not due to driver paperwork errors. Our paperwork is perfect.

The problems sourced from other people. And that's the problem with Canada loads. More people are involved behind the scenes and for each additional person and step, the opportunity for failure increases.

 

[davekc]

The steps, checks and double checks you list are the kind that are in the driver's control. We do the same things. The problems we have encountered at the border are not due to driver paperwork errors. Our paperwork is perfect.

The problems sourced from other people. And that's the problem with Canada loads. More people are involved behind the scenes and for each additional person and step, the opportunity for failure increases.

If a profit is being realized by someone other than the driver, then the process will be much slower. Sorry, it is just how it is.

 

[ATeam]

After seeing how it *really* works, I agree with the 2 statements above.

Is there really only one way how it really works?

The problems we run into are different from time to time. Some of our loads are simple freight. One literally drew a crowd of officers at the customs office because the paperwork was so unique (not improper, unique). Sometimes additional approval is needed from a government agency that is not usually involved. Sometimes a broker in an office at the border is involved. Sometimes we never see the broker. Once a senior officer chewed out a junior officer in front of the driver because the load should not have been pulled in. Sometimes the shipper calls ahead and we are passed quickly through without the usual checks or X-ray. Sometimes we are told to go see the broker for no apparent reason.

Depending on what you have on the truck and who is shipping and/or receiving it, a wide variety of rules and requirements seem to kick in. It would be nice if there was just one way that cross-border freight is done, but nothing in our experience suggests that is the case. We don't haul live animals but I have to think that the rules and paperwork for those are different than if you are hauling a load of poison gas, starter motors or fresh flowers.

The broker is just an amazing scapegoat to blame all delays on, if there is no pressure to prove it. My bet is on it being the carrier's fault most of the time.

Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. Our carrier is open 24/7 and if they screw something up they do their best to quickly fix it. We know this because we see them try and they keep us posted. They do a good job of documenting who did what and when and who said what and when. They type it into the run notes so one person can pick up where the other person left off when shifts change or people get busy.

If you look after it yourself (will Fedex really allow you to do this??), then you will know exactly where the hold up is. And what kind of broker isn't open 24/7?

In general, our carrier will not let us look into it ourselves. That would mean inserting ourselves into customer and service provider conversations the carrier would rather have.

I cannot tell you from personal experience that all brokers are open 24/7 because we don't usually talk to them. Dispatch does.

But I have no reason to believe that when dispatch tells us the problem cannot be resolved until the broker returns to work in the morning that is untrue. Dispatch is as eager as we are to get us across to keep the shipper and consignee happy. If the problem could be solved in the middle of the night, I believe our dispatchers would make every effort to do so.

The times when it really *is* the customs broker's fault, somebody pays, usually the shipper will be charged or whoever hired the broker. If it's not the driver getting the holdup pay, it's someone else. There are charges levied for that type of thing.

That's not the story we get. We are told that if fees for delays are not in the customer's contract, the customer cannot be charged and we cannot be paid. That is not a fun thing to be told when you are stuck out of production for a night or more.

Of course, though, if it is Fedex's shipper customer, and Fedex offers the shipper the services of their own customs brokerage to look after it.... I guess there isn't anyone to charge, since it is themselves?

I can't comment on that since our transactions with FedEx Trade Services are few and far between. I wish we could use them more often. At least then I could raise an internal fuss when a broker fails us.

The threat of putting the shipment in bond is a good one, and one the carrier can use to promote action on the broker/shipper's part (apparently it's unreasonably expensive!), if in fact it really is the broker or shipper's fault. If it isn't, and it is really the carrier's fault, of course they'd rather find another driver who is content to just be told it's the broker's fault and they just have to wait.

When Diane and I are on a load, we don't threaten to delay or derail the shipment. We try to provide solutions and make the shipment a success; even to the point of taking a hit. However, when the hits become too many, and similar loads are later offered, the incentive grows to stay out of situations that can have been problematic in the past.

It's a simple process that goes in a simple sequence, taking a certain amount of time. There is no reason for all the holdups I hear about. You can bet that if it was any kind of money coming out of the carrier's pocket instead of the driver's pocket, the carrier would be billing for it or making appropriate staff changes or using a different customs broker. More respect is required for the drivers, and more training is required in the carrier offices so that someone knowledgeable is on duty at all times who can look after the 'odd' glitch.

FedEx Custom Critical has done exactly that. Our dispatchers are knowledgeable about Canadian freight and, recently, we have seen that they designate one person on each night shifts to oversee all cross-border freight. We have seen dispatch errors on cross-border freight in the past but we are genuinely impressed with the way dispatchers are now. Improvements have been made and we appreciate the change.

My border-crossing complaints are not directed at our dispatchers. The problems seem to come most often from brokers and shippers who make paperwork mistakes and then are not available to quickly fix them when errors are found.

A partial solution, and perhaps a great one, would be for shippers to use only brokers that are open 24/7, and to always have a knowledgeable person on duty or on call at the shipper end whenever an international load is on the move.

 

[davekc]

Unless the carrier has made the mistake, they are charging for the delay unless in your case you are actually using Fedex's own brokerage service.
Any other case I have never seen a carrier not charge.
PJ is correct in that not all brokers are 24/7. Some aren't even at every crossing. Just a FYI.

 

[greg334]

The steps, checks and double checks you list are the kind that are in the driver's control. We do the same things. The problems we have encountered at the border are not due to driver paperwork errors. Our paperwork is perfect.

Are you sure?

I mean it is rather an arrogant statement at best that your paper work is perfect when you can't get across the border.

Sometimes the shipper calls ahead and we are passed quickly through without the usual checks or X-ray.

What? you think FedEx has some pull?

What seems to happen is random searches, nothing more, you draw the short straw and go through the check or get the long one and sail through.

Depending on what you have on the truck and who is shipping and/or receiving it, a wide variety of rules and requirements seem to kick in.

Well I don't know if that it is all that true, I have hauled some pretty weird stuff across the border and it gets passed through rather quickly without issues. Most of which has specific export approvals and such which are all done long before the truck bumps the dock.

In general, our carrier will not let us look into it ourselves. That would mean inserting ourselves into customer and service provider conversations the carrier would rather have.

Got to tell you Phil, it isn't because you are not capable of handling the situation yourself but rather they do not trust you to do something so easy as to interface with the customer.

It comes down to the trust issue more than anything else. you are not an employee, you are a contractor so why trust you?

I can't comment on that since our transactions with FedEx Trade Services are few and far between. I wish we could use them more often. At least then I could raise an internal fuss when a broker fails us.

I have and got to tell you if it wasn't for a personal friendship with people at FedEX TN, my customer would be screwed. They in general are no better than most brokers and are not all happy about helping to solve problems for their customers.

My border-crossing complaints are not directed at our dispatchers.

It absolutely should be, they have taken the step to remove YOU from the chain of communications and have you waiting in the wings only to find out that there was a problem AND without real compensation.

With all the crossings I have done, I have found out that if I can talk to a broker and get the right info to them first hand, then I will cross with no problems. Many dispatchers are clueless to the actual work they should be doing, which is not to hand things off until they are done but better yet management would be wise to overlap some of the shifts and assign work which comes in late in the day to someone who is just starting their shift.

UNTIL you go through the entire process in exporting or importing something yourself, you don't know how it all works.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I've spent many a day chasing down a broker, asking questions, Like what exactly is it you need to clear this load and what needs to be done....? Many a time I found a solution before dispatch even made the first call....Those brokers know each other and most of the accounts and who does what..to be kept out of the loop is ridiculous....

In hindsight...those where the days you were at the actual border crossing...now they don't let you even get that close...so much for that thought...

 

[pjjjjj]

Is there really only one way how it really works?

Well.. in a word.. yes.. it's all in the paperwork... and between the shipper and the customs broker and the carrier, each with their own job to do, the paperwork should be a breeze, no matter what it is that is crossing.. dotted i's, crossed t's, proper forms, clearances, whatever..

The problems we run into are different from time to time. Some of our loads are simple freight. One literally drew a crowd of officers at the customs office because the paperwork was so unique (not improper, unique). Sometimes additional approval is needed from a government agency that is not usually involved. Sometimes a broker in an office at the border is involved. Sometimes we never see the broker. Once a senior officer chewed out a junior officer in front of the driver because the load should not have been pulled in. Sometimes the shipper calls ahead and we are passed quickly through without the usual checks or X-ray. Sometimes we are told to go see the broker for no apparent reason.

If a shipment's paperwork is that unique, then everyone should be forewarned, the driver should be warned to expect a fluff, and the carrier should be making sure that everyone is going to be compensated accordingly.

Depending on what you have on the truck and who is shipping and/or receiving it, a wide variety of rules and requirements seem to kick in. It would be nice if there was just one way that cross-border freight is done, but nothing in our experience suggests that is the case. We don't haul live animals but I have to think that the rules and paperwork for those are different than if you are hauling a load of poison gas, starter motors or fresh flowers.

You're right, there are all different things, rules, requirements, forms, (just the same as there are for trucking permits and rules)... things which the shipper and customs broker (and carrier IMHO) should be educated about... there are all different rules, but trouble-free border crossings are still all in the paperwork being done properly (as well as other more obvious things).

Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. Our carrier is open 24/7 and if they screw something up they do their best to quickly fix it. We know this because we see them try and they keep us posted. They do a good job of documenting who did what and when and who said what and when. They type it into the run notes so one person can pick up where the other person left off when shifts change or people get busy.

I am having difficulty comprehending that some customs brokers close up shop for the night without leaving some kind of an alternate contact in charge of their stuff. I can't imagine they could otherwise compete in that business. It might take a few calls and some work on the carrier's end, to find a way, somehow, to get it resolved... in those few instances when something goes wrong.

In general, our carrier will not let us look into it ourselves. That would mean inserting ourselves into customer and service provider conversations the carrier would rather have.

In my experience, which admittedly isn't huge, I found that US carriers were massively relieved when they found they didn't have to deal with the paperwork and customs brokers. And there's a reason for that.

I cannot tell you from personal experience that all brokers are open 24/7 because we don't usually talk to them. Dispatch does.

But I have no reason to believe that when dispatch tells us the problem cannot be resolved until the broker returns to work in the morning that is untrue. Dispatch is as eager as we are to get us across to keep the shipper and consignee happy. If the problem could be solved in the middle of the night, I believe our dispatchers would make every effort to do so.

I have found that it isn't a matter of wishing they could help, it is a matter of knowing (or not) how to help.

That's not the story we get. We are told that if fees for delays are not in the customer's contract, the customer cannot be charged and we cannot be paid. That is not a fun thing to be told when you are stuck out of production for a night or more.

The thing is, it only makes sense for it to BE in every customer's contract..... unless of course the customer is using the carrier's very own customs brokerage and a massive holdup happens to be their fault. Then of course, it wouldn't be in the contract.

I can't comment on that since our transactions with FedEx Trade Services are few and far between. I wish we could use them more often. At least then I could raise an internal fuss when a broker fails us.

I have to tell you that Fedex's customs brokerage part isn't met with glowing reviews within the trucking industry.

When Diane and I are on a load, we don't threaten to delay or derail the shipment. We try to provide solutions and make the shipment a success; even to the point of taking a hit. However, when the hits become too many, and similar loads are later offered, the incentive grows to stay out of situations that can have been problematic in the past.

I don't think anyone threatens to have something put in bond just so they can cause problems.. they do it when they've exhausted all other avenues and have to think about their own business. When you think about your plastic chair which is the title of the thread, can you really see it ever happening where a carrier would allow their resources to be utilized for perhaps an entire weekend, without compensation, and not only once, but perhaps a few times? I think that suggestion was offered more jokingly.

FedEx Custom Critical has done exactly that. Our dispatchers are knowledgeable about Canadian freight and, recently, we have seen that they designate one person on each night shifts to oversee all cross-border freight. We have seen dispatch errors on cross-border freight in the past but we are genuinely impressed with the way dispatchers are now. Improvements have been made and we appreciate the change.

My border-crossing complaints are not directed at our dispatchers. The problems seem to come most often from brokers and shippers who make paperwork mistakes and then are not available to quickly fix them when errors are found.

That's great, keep up the good work Fedex!

A partial solution, and perhaps a great one, would be for shippers to use only brokers that are open 24/7, and to always have a knowledgeable person on duty or on call at the shipper end whenever an international load is on the move.

Those items should be mandatory.

 

[ATeam]

pjjjjj, the word that weaves your responses together is "should." No one will disagree with you that things "should" be a certain way. The problem is that they are not.

In fact, there are brokers that do close up shop overnight. In fact, there are shippers that go home for dinner and don't want to take calls after hours. In fact, human beings make human errors. And, in big, big, fact, we find ourselves suffering costly border crossing delays as a result.

Border crossing has become a different ball game since 911. I am beginning to think that the traditional detention time model is unsuited for border crossing loads in today's world. Perhaps a border detention time model needs to be developed. Dispatch would find drivers more willing to do international loads if they knew the risks and costs of a delay would be reduced. A border detention time model that transferred the financial risks of a border crossing delay off the truck and back up the supply chain would, I think, increase driver willingness to do international loads.

Can such a model be developed? I fear not. It is too easy to find another carrier and another sucker to put on a load that can become problematic at the border. Why would any shipper or broker agree to remain available 24/7 and compensate a driver for border delays when they don't have to?

 

[OntarioVanMan]

pjjjjj, the word that weaves your responses together is "should." No one will disagree with you that things "should" be a certain way. The problem is that they are not.

In fact, there are brokers that do close up shop overnight. In fact, there are shippers that go home for dinner and don't want to take calls after hours. In fact, human beings make human errors. And, in big, big, fact, we find ourselves suffering costly border crossing delays as a result.

Border crossing has become a different ball game since 911. I am beginning to think that the traditional detention time model is unsuited for border crossing loads in today's world. Perhaps a border detention time model needs to be developed. Dispatch would find drivers more willing to do international loads if they knew the risks and costs of a delay would be reduced. A border detention time model that transferred the financial risks of a border crossing delay off the truck and back up the supply chain would, I think, increase driver willingness to do international loads.

Can such a model be developed? I fear not. It is too easy to find another carrier and another sucker to put on a load that can become problematic at the border. Why would any shipper or broker agree to remain available 24/7 and compensate a driver for border delays when they don't have to?

Phil..I always got paid Detention time...after a 2 hour exemption....I can't for the life of me think why the Feds don't charge the customer or take it out of their pocket as per contract rate.

 

[ATeam]

Phil..I always got paid Detention time...after a 2 hour exemption....I can't for the life of me think why the Feds don't charge the customer or take it out of their pocket as per contract rate.

I can't speak for our carrier about why they don't pay. That is an inside policy decision that I am not privy to.

I can say that our contract does not specifically address detention time. When a circumstance develops where a truck is delayed and a driver might reasonably expect D-time pay, we are frequently told by dispatch or our contractor coordinator that trucks are only paid D-time when the customer can be charged. If they cannot be charged under the contract they have, we cannot be paid...the story goes.

Sometimes we get paid D-time and sometimes we do not. When we do get paid, the amount per hour varies from customer to customer, as does the amount of time that must pass before the D-time clock begins. We never know for sure until after the load is delivered.

I would be interested to know from you, OVM, and others, if the contracts you have with your carrier specifically mention detention time and what exactly your D-time provisions are.

EDIT: Because it is a topic in itself, I started a new thread to discuss the D-time question.

 

[Scuba]

The delay's are the exact reason I don't go to Canada. Another reason, coming back to this country and dealing with the attitudes of our border patrol. Free to leave, Pay to come home. What kind of logic is that??

The pay to come back into the USA was started by Roservelt it was to get extra money to go to run the VA Hospital system but today it's an ag fee

 

[greg334]

I have to ask this;

How many of you know how many truckers are caught up in the "overnight customs sanfu" at the border?

I bet you something like .01% of all the shipments that go through the bridge here in Detroit/Windsor IF that.

The amount of traffic that comes through this gateway is HUGE and to expect a broker (WHO by the way IS THE CUSTOMER'S CHOICE) to be there 24/7 to serve YOU is rather an asinine idea.

When you see the trucks in the compound, it is not always for customs related issues.

As for detention time, I don't think anyone should get it. If the carrier does their part, gets a confirmation number from the broker or books the load right and the driver asks the right questions at the shipper to prevent any problems, then you don't get the problems you get. On top of all of that, you are being paid to move that freight from point a to point b and if there are delays in the process, suck it up and deal with it - you don't get detention pay for sitting in a traffic jam or in line waiting to pull up to the customs booth, do you?

 

[BigBusBob]

I'm going to chime in here... "sometimes" it depends on who's at the border... and the particular border crossing you are going thru as well. I will say it also does depend on the freight. Automotive freight seems to flow nicely across. Move a load of DVD's across and they will break the seal and look for mice in the box. And don't dare tell them what to do in the box... don't climb on that please, they're going to climb on it then.

If the seal is broken, I just stand at the back and smile. Anger breeds anger. If they know they're getting to you, they're going to ruffle you even more, just to get their rocks off.

You can request them to check your load as well- if you're unsure because you were not able to see the loading or not able to see the securement.

By the way, the mexicans and trucks to the south go thru the same thing as Canada does. The reason it's not as obvious is that many loads out of Mexico or into Mexico go thru a warehouse very close to the border. Personally, I believe it's because of the illegal trade that goes on there. And don't say it doesn't happen, because we all know it does - Especially with Mexico.

A simple solution would be not to go into Canada. but that's cutting an artery.
Another solution would be to only take loads that go thru the eastern borders... Quebec.
Far less problems there in my opinion- not to mention it's less crowded.
The downside is that could put you outside of primary freight traffic lanes for inbound... Or, you may get a load in Canada going out thru Ontario and be forced to go out thru the western borders near Detroit and the other problematic crossings.

A simple solution, instead of trying to put a cap on a volcano that wants to erupt, but is unable due to politics... would be to steer clear of Ontario loads. Bingo. Problem solved. Hopefully.
I've even had problems crossing thru there with the busses.
Quebec not so much- with bus and truck it's always been easier.

Ontario is full of trade, it's far more industrial than Quebec is. Ontario is very busy with importing and exporting, Quebec is busy with tourists and some industry, but not near as much industry as Ontario. Ontario does so much with so many different industries, in their eyes they're just watching whats going on.

Just like a major port does here in the US with it's containers and freight going in and out on the ships in their port. They want a paperwork trail in case something happens, that way they know where to go for what. it's the nature of the beast.

I look at the big picture, I'd rather be delayed and be safe than run through and be profitable. Sounds nuts, but look at this way to understand better (on the same principle)... I'd rather have the drug and bomb sniffing dog go thru a line of coaches, than let us all roll thru and be unsafe.

I'd rather go thru a border delay and be sure the paperwork is done all correctly than go thru and later find out after the drop that paperwork was improper and somebody owes somebody some money somewhere. Sometimes you end up answering questions for weeks about cases like that. I think the easiest solution Ateam would be to just eliminate Ontario for 3 months and do one Ontario run every 4 months (or pick a number that suits you- maybe every 6 weeks?) after that and see if that helps your bottom line. Try Quebec stuff, the scenery is far better and since you got the wife onboard the romance of Quebec city awaits you. Try for a load to Tadousac or somewhere close... Great scenery!!
I know Quebec fairly well from a tourism standpoint.
Ontario has seen a good bit of me in both trucks and busses.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I have to ask this;

How many of you know how many truckers are caught up in the "overnight customs sanfu" at the border?

I bet you something like .01% of all the shipments that go through the bridge here in Detroit/Windsor IF that.

The amount of traffic that comes through this gateway is HUGE and to expect a broker (WHO by the way IS THE CUSTOMER'S CHOICE) to be there 24/7 to serve YOU is rather an asinine idea.

When you see the trucks in the compound, it is not always for customs related issues.

As for detention time, I don't think anyone should get it. If the carrier does their part, gets a confirmation number from the broker or books the load right and the driver asks the right questions at the shipper to prevent any problems, then you don't get the problems you get. On top of all of that, you are being paid to move that freight from point a to point b and if there are delays in the process, suck it up and deal with it - you don't get detention pay for sitting in a traffic jam or in line waiting to pull up to the customs booth, do you?

And you said you know Customs?

There are many things even shippers are not aware of...maybe the office managers...what questions Greg?

Is the product from a restricted country?

Is the item on the tariff sheet...and at what at rate?

Has the paying customer paid their brokerage fees on time?

For tax purposes is the item classified properly?

do they have an account for that product at that border crossing?

I had most problems from the part time shippers that use say a broker in Ottawa Ont. and use a 3rd party for clearance...there can be much out of our control or carriers domain of knowledge...

should our carrier know that the tariff code is correct for that product?

 

[cheri1122]

When I did border crossing loads [with Panther], the broker's name and number was always provided. Before leaving the shipper, I faxed the paperwork to the broker, then waited about 20 minutes, then called to confirm that it had arrived, and was completed correctly. Only the did I leave the shipper.
I never had a delay for paperwork.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

When I did border crossing loads [with Panther], the broker's name and number was always provided. Before leaving the shipper, I faxed the paperwork to the broker, then waited about 20 minutes, then called to confirm that it had arrived, and was completed correctly. Only the did I leave the shipper.
I never had a delay for paperwork.

That is fine..BUT the load was NOT cleared yet...many things can happen on the way to the border...You've been lucky...

3 things a driver knows for sure to check...

1. Country of origin

2. Value stated on form

3. Currency ..it should say US or Can.

without that never leave the dock...

 

[cheri1122]

Also gave my cell number to the broker to call if any problems would affect crossing. They never did, but at least I would have been forewarned, and found a place to wait before crossing.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Just one case comes to mind...

Did everything to the letter...broker said paperwork "appeared" in order....ok I leave...

OPPS....wait...during processing what I had on was not that companies manufactured goods....but rather a maintenance item on transfer....guess what? Wrong broker....Customer uses a different broker for inter company transfers...who the heck would even think...

 

[greg334]

And you said you know Customs?

There are many things even shippers are not aware of...maybe the office managers...

Blah blah blah

Go through a customs training course and you will learn all about what happens and how the process works.

Shippers are the ones who are ultimately responsible for that shipment in the eyes of the customs people, but the driver can be the victim like the broker.

There is a lot of problems with the right classification of the items crossing the border and this is usually the hold up at the broker's office. The other hold up is the problem with the customer - they didn't pay their last bill or they have not been vetted for credit with the brokerage house.

The dispatcher can be trained to ask the right questions, ESPECIALLY with a company like FedEx who have brokers embedded in Freight, Supply Chain and Express from their brokerage division. It is not hard to learn, the biggest problem like I said is asking the right questions and then the second biggest one is the mentality that they only work their shift and leave.

About 80% of the crossings I did for other companies lacked a confirmation number which is given when the customs people accept the load. At FedEx I had to pester the idiot dispatchers to call and get one, a few times they told me I didn't need one but it helped to find the issue very quickly at the booth. IF there is a confirmation number, then the load was processed by the broker, accepted by the appropriate country and the crossing will be painless most of the time. The exception to this was problems with Livingston Windsor who on one cold snowy day decided to cancel the load on me without mentioning it to anyone and I had one hard time with Canadian customs.