Mini's and 1st outs

[Scuba]

With the next meeting coming up i am seeing 1st outs being a huge problem with the new v/t system. There are a lot of complaints about being on a v/t and being kicked back over and over because of 1st outs. I would like to hear from you. How can we minimize this problem? Would an increase in the mini pay be something that would get you to give up the 1st out? If so please list the type of truck you drive and what you think a mini should pay. Please let’s be realistic with the numbers. Any other thing that you can think of to replace the 1st out’s for a mini or dry runs pass it on. But as far as a dry run goes I am not sure how it is billed so it may not be possible for an increase in the pay.

 

[LDB]

It's a tough issue to find a point of balance between trucks who have been waiting on loads and trucks who've just covered a horrible load. Minis definitely should pay more. I don't know the current rate for vans or tractors so I'd have to guesstimate those. Straight trucks should be paid $150 plus fsc for a mini. Vans maybe $100 plus fsc and tractors $200 plus fsc.

First outs are a different can of worms. Solo operators really need a first out so maybe they'll get another run for the day and make enough money for the day to be worthwhile. Their clock is ticking and without the first out they are done unless they're the only truck on the board. Even with the first out there's no guarantee the mini isn't their only revenue for the day.

Trucks waiting shouldn't be unable to get to the top to get a load either though. One of my solo s/t friends was recently on Charlotte. He started out something like 5th and had moved up to 2nd out. As the day progressed he kept dropping until he was back to 5th because 3 first outs came in and moved in ahead of everyone else.

Are first outs being given as bribes for loads that were booked to cheap and can't be covered without a bribe? Are they being given at times to favorites? It's hard to figure how 3 first outs could get ahead of you when there weren't 3 trucks already ahead of you that maybe each said yes to a mini to get it.

Something needs to be done to also protect those who have been sitting a long time. Maybe a system that doesn't let a first out ahead of you once you have over 12 or 15 or 18 hours of dwell time. I'm not sure how they could look out for everyone fairly but something needs to be done.

 

[pelicn]

Scuba, I would like to see 1st out's done away with except in the case of a dry run. A driver has no control over whether a load cancels or not, and to wait and wait, then have a load cancel and go to the bottom of the list isn't right.
Mini's may not be desirable, but they are loads that can be accepted or rejected.

What good does it do to have more than 1 1st out? Except to bump the other trucks farther down the list?

Leo brought up a point about dwell time...dwell must be figured at the last time you called to get a 1st out reinstated, because that's the only way another truck could jump ahead if you had been sitting in the same place.

I forgot to mention in my "rant" that the first time we were bumped this weekend, I was told by Driver Relations, that if you have a 1st out, and then have a dry run, you have to call to get a 1st out back, because the computer doesn't see it.

The numbers that Leo put out for a mini would be fair.

 

[xiggi]

I had almost the exact same scenario Leo described last week also on the Charlotte board except I am in a sprinter so on the van board. I was 2nd out mid morning Thursday and ended up 5th out Friday morning. This is supposedly on a decent board. People under me did disappear from the board on Thursday but there can be many reasons for that so who knows really why they did.

I have to say to be fair I did end up with a pretty good week last week but when you get bumped that much it is frustrating.

I think the pricing LDB mentioned sounds in the ball park. It sure is a tough subject and I do not think everyone will be happy in every case. Sometimes rewards like first outs are justified to a driver but what is fair to that person might be 100% unfair to some drivers already on the board. If someone is sitting first out on a board and turns down a mini then someone behind him runs it does he have the right to complain when he gets bumped by the first out?

Drivers that have been sitting for long periods need protected from bumps somehow especially if they have not been offered loads. No matter what the outcome of the subject I do not think everyone will be completely satisfied or that it would be possible to do so.

Just read Pelicn's post and it made me think. Does a dry run really deserve a first out or should it pay something worthwhile and the originaol dwell time before the load offer be re-instated?

Another edit: Pel got me thinking to much. Should mini's instead of getting first outs also pay as talked about and the dwell time before the load offer be given back upon delivery? This would keep someone who was down on the board and runs a mini from suddenly jumping ahead of those who were in front of them in the first place. It could also stop some other things from happening some believe to go on with minis.

 

[mjolnir131]

ok 99 bucks just don't cut it anymore say your right at 100 miles to pick up so no DH assume relocation is around 100 sometimes it's less yes but some times it's more. Soooooo ...... thats around say 300 miles with fuel above 2.50 you have just about used up what your getting for the load and are working for FSC. if your not the owner of the truck your going into the hole

ALL dry runs you need to get your place back at minimum or a 1'st out,this is the only reason we need first outs anymore if nobody wants that mini put it up on a bid board or make it a desent paying gig

I'm guessing around 200 bucks for a mini rarely does one take less than 4 hours start to finish that's 25-30 bucks an hour depending on your MPG's

 

[mjolnir131]

maybe after sitting 24 hours you get a 1st if they really think they need 1st outs to get minis ran

 

[Scuba]

Ok this is no secret as to what everyone gets for a mini now it is after all in your handbook and I asked you what you think{ YOUR} type of truck should get instead of a 1st out tractors already get more than what you guys are saying is a fair price because you don’t know what it takes to cover the cost of a tractor same as I don’t know what it takes to cover the costs for other types of units. As a solo even with a 1st out the amount of time I spend on most minis I am not going to see another load offer that day. Has it happened yes 1 time in four years so no I don’t count on it. So please limit your response to your type of unit and what it would take for you to forgo a 1st out for a run.
As far as dwell time Sean told me that dwell time is supposed to be taken into account when a first out comes in. As to when the programming will be written I just don’t know. But in a perfect world if you have been sitting somewhere for 24 hrs and a 1st out comes in it should fall in behind you. But at some point the trucks below it may hit the 24 hr mark also so there is no perfect plan. I would like to see several vans tell me what they think if fair for them and the same for st and for t/t better yet talk to your rep but sadly most people seem to like to come here to express their views than to reach out to their rep. and plain and simple I will give the numbers to your rep at the meeting and it will be his/her job to make the pitch for their fleet. I am looking for answers but at the same time I don’t want to steep on other people’s toes.
We all know the horror stories but what I need is solutions I have my ideas but we were elected to represent you unlike congress I would like to bring your ideas to the table not just mine.

 

[Turtle]

To give up a first out in a van, we'd need $100 minimum, plus FSC, plus DH over 50 miles.

 

[davekc]

Regardless of the unit size, most of the same issues exist. As for straight trucks, many times it has nothing to really do with the rate. Even say at the mentioned 200 dollars. If we are the first truck up out of eight on a 3 a day average board, we (teams) are now factoring several days plus costs, into that load.
Basically means a non profit adventure unless it is a gov mini.
If for example you are in LA, who wants to do a short load while at the top of the board, come back say in four hours, and be number eight? That is why we don't even look at say a 125 mile load in those circumstances.
Very tricky issue. Much depends on the board, how many trucks/loads etc. Getting ones dwell time back would help that situation. But...........that is basically giving a first out.
Same issue with a dry run. Pay the dry run, and reinstate the original dwell time.
Only issue with dwell times is if they are entered correctly. That could open a can worms just on its basic principle.
Every time someone is bumped back, it will generate a bunch of calls to relations for verification from the trucks knocked back.
Probably similar to what they field now because of the first outs.

 

[Turtle]

List the dwell time on the QC and online.

 

[davekc]

List the dwell time on the QC and online.

That is available on the web already, but just for your truck. It would have to include the other trucks to be effective. Could still confusing because other trucks are only identified by unit type, rather than by number.

On a side note for the council, under representives, you may want to include a email for contact. Knowing who they are but no way to contact them is something that should be corrected.
When I click on it, I get their name and picture, but nothing else.

 

[Turtle]

That is available on the web already, but just for your truck. It would have to include the other trucks to be effective. Could still confusing because other trucks are only identified by unit type, rather than by number.

That's what I meant, all the trucks should be shown, but you're right, without listing all the truck unit numbers, which isn't likely to happen, listing dwell time for each would probably be meaningless.

When I click on it, I get their name and picture, but nothing else.

Same here for the solo van dood.

 

[panther_art]

When and if the new system ever goes in effect, and you do a mini you get a first out if you go to where the qc sends you. If you go someplace on your own you don't take the first out with you. That is the fair way and dry runs go back to the terminal they where on and get 1st place back, and even with the dry runs you lose your 1st out if you move on your own.

This is how I think it should be done and I am a solo van driver.

 

[xiggi]

I am in a sprinter and first outs for minis have to be done away with on the new boards IMHO. You can be bumped way to often for it to be considered fair. In the last five days counting the weekend I have been bumped 4 times.

I could understand original dwell time but not first outs being awarded. The way I figure for every mini I might get I have a chance of being bumped by 20 or 30 other first outs so I would gladly give them up. I think 100 bucks plus fsc seems fair for our vehicles if it picks up direct and not in five hours or something.

 

[Scuba]

That is available on the web already, but just for your truck. It would have to include the other trucks to be effective. Could still confusing because other trucks are only identified by unit type, rather than by number.

On a side note for the council, under representives, you may want to include a email for contact. Knowing who they are but no way to contact them is something that should be corrected.
When I click on it, I get their name and picture, but nothing else.

I can't speek for the other council reps but i have my email with instructions on the drivers web. If you aren't a solo tractor you wont see it.I don't want every driver out there to have my email address. The reason for that is i would be fielding questions for st and vans and teams. I will bring it up at the meeting and ask the other members to post an email on their site. I talk to drivers no matter what they drive but that is on general issues anything truck specific should go to that council rep. I don't drive straight trucks or vans so i dont deal with all of the same issues thats why i don't post it for everyone to see. I also typed up a welcome letter to be handed out to all solo tractor drivers with my phone number and email address. As far as i know Panther hasen't handed any of them out. But at least i tried.

 

[LDB]

When I was on council I put my email addr in each time I sent out a message to my group. I'd send a message out a few weeks before the next meeting asking for emails with any topics for discussion. I usually got zero responses.

On this subject, my opinion is there should be about a 50% increase in pay for a mini for each unit size. I took a wild guess at what that would make each one and obviously was wrong other than for s/t. There could be any number of changes to the system on mini's, dwell etc. and none will be fully satisfactory.

Another option would be to eliminate the first out and suspend the dwell time clock based on the job parameters and the 47mph rule. You have units 1, 2, and 3 sitting on a board. They have dwell time of 4, 9 and 11 hours with unit 1 having the most dwell, 2 next then 3 with the least dwell. A mini comes up that's 45 miles to the shipper so it will take one hour to get there. The pu is at noon so the truck will have to roll at 11. The load offer comes at 9. Each unit continues to add dwell time till 11 at which point they have 6, 11 and 13 hours. At that point one rolls and the other two continue to add dwell time. The truck that takes the load sends POD at 1400 so the other two trucks have added 3 hours to their dwell time. The unit that ran the load gets back in line with the amount of dwell he had at 11 when he started rolling to do the job. Depending on the dwell time of the other trucks it may or may not result in a change in board position.

If unit 1 did the job he's now second out with 13 hours dwell to unit 2's 14 hours dwell. He made some money and dropped one position on the board.

If unit 2 did the job he is second with 11 hours to unit 1's 16 hrs dwell and unit 3's 9 hrs dwell but now has some money too.

If unit 3 did the job he's back in 3rd spot still with the 6 hours of dwell he had at 11 when he started the job plus some money.

I'm sure many more ways of doing it could be devised. This is just one more for the list.

 

[Bruno]

I said this a long time ago and I will say it again. Lets go back to what helped make Roberts Express a great company to work for. Take away the 1st out, replace it with the less than 75 mile run and everyone will be happy.

If Panther would change the way they pay the O/O on loads under 300 miles it would help.
Here is what I came up with for Frank last week when i had a meeting with him at the home office.

Loads from 0 to 99 miles you get an extra .50 per mile for those loads.

Loads from 100 to 199 you get an extra .40 per mile for those loads.

Loads from 200 to 299 you get an extra .30 per mile for those loads.

Panther can have it to where you can flag that you prefer loads over 300 miles if you are a team. That way the single drivers can get offered the 250 loads. I think the Service Centers that Panther has now is not enough. The 90 minute pickup will suffer because of this. You have to never say no to a customer if you can. Less Service Centers will hurt us in the long run.

 

[termite289]

i suppose we should have asked how fed-ex did it before we started screwing around with something that seemed to work pretty well. i wouldn't be thinking about deadheading home cause i'm the number two truck in Nashville at 23:00 in the old days but now, if i lay down and sleep, when i rise, ill probably be number 5 on a 4 load a day average. so why should i sit here, maybe hoping for a swap to Texas, sorry i'm solo, so ill get a truckload offer to bumble fork, Egypt for $1.25 or so

 

[mjolnir131]

if your in nashville your not that far from (little) Egypt to start with