Van Loads to big trucks

[Packmule]

This is a continued topic that was started in another thread;07 Sprinters, but started to get interesting enough to stand on it's own.
It seems that it is becoming the normal for a lot of carriers to pass over Vans in their fleet to keep their stright trucks running, even at the expense of the Van drivers in their fleet and at the expense of their customers best interest.

1)I would like to hear from Van drivers that this is happening to and how they feel about it.

2)Also I would like to hear the opions of stright truck drivers as to their feelings about this subject.

3)and last but not least I would like the input of Carriers and dispatchers as to weather they condone this practice and the reasoning for it.


Danny

 

[terryandrene]

Does it happen? It sure does!

In the case of our carrier, tariffs are based on dimmension/weight of the cargo, not necesssarily the size of the truck. In usual practice, the customer pays to get one skid at 500# moved and is not concerned whether a van or T/T comes to get it.

What appears to be van freight on a straight truck. i.e, a 500# skid, is not always van, or "B" freight. The skid might be 9 feet long or wider than 50 inches, or taller than 48 inches; that would be a straight truck load.

Either the shipper or the consignee might not have a ramp and require a dock-high truck; that 500# load is now a straight truck load paying straight truck prices.

The shipper may have ordered a straight truck not realizing he could have saved money by asking for the least expensive way to move the freight.

Perhaps a lift gate was required to get a ground level wheeled, 500# computer onto a truck; that looked like a "B" load that would fit on a van but no way to get it in the van.

Perhaps the carrier needs a straight truck in a distant city for a pickup the next day. A van load, paying van rates, going to that city would allow the carrier to relocate the Straight truck in a manner that was beneficial to the carrier and the straight truck owner even though the van could have taken the van load. That's business, sorry van owner, I don't like it either, but it happens.

Special handling with furniture pads, HAZMAT requirements, Sealed cargo box requirements, Dual driver requirements, or surveillence requirements could all lead to the selection of straight trucks over vans.

As expedited freight often requires ASAP pickup and delivery to satify a customer emergency, the closest truck often gets the 500# load, regardless of truck size.

With our carrier, a small "C" straight truck competes equally with a "B" truck for "B" freight. Dwell time in an area often allows a "C" to get preference for "B" freight.

Many straight truck owners will often say they never, or rarely, carry van freight. The reason for this belief is because, in the case of our carrier, the are offered "C" money to carry van freight, ergo, it must be straight truck freight

 

[cheri1122]

As a van o/o, I haven't any definite knowledge of it happening, but it makes sense: carriers and drivers will generally act in their own best interests. Being no exception to that rule, I'm planning to move up to a D unit, as soon as I find an honest owner who is willing to put a solo in a truck.
I really believe that there will always be a need for cargo vans, but the supply is outstripping the demand right now. B unit freight can go on a C or D unit, but the reverse is impossible.

 

[Packmule]

Terry said:
In the case of our carrier, tariffs are based on dimmension/weight of the cargo, not necesssarily the size of the truck. In usual practice, the customer pays to get one skid at 500# moved and is not concerned whether a van or T/T comes to get it.
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Terry,
If my memory serves me correctly, your carrier sells the service of the entire truck based on size and weight capacity of the truck, NOT on the size and weight of one peice of cargo. The more capacity the higher the price. What comes into play then is dimmension/weight or need for additional requirements such as dock high, Lift gate, or special securement.
These are all acceptable reasons to go to a larger truck.
To pass a "TRUE" van load to a stright truck over a van with equal dwell time leaves something to be desired in the ethical department in my opinion.
I am not faced with this with my carrier as such, but even as a stright truck O/O it used to bother me to see this happening to the van drivers.
Thanks for your input, I agree that 90% of what you said was right on.

Danny

 

[TeamCaffee]

We also know we pick up van freight but as Terry has mentioned it will be disguised as a C load. We do not know how the customer called in the freight so really do not have a clue if this problem is caused by the carrier or the shipper. We have also been into places that should only allow B Vans. I also know that there is talk that the trucks steal the van loads. My question is how are we supposed to know when we have a load offer that is a C load and pays well enough to accept that load. We for one will not call our carrier and question their wisdom on why they offered us that load.

 

[terryandrene]

Danny:

I have a memory like a sieve, so I'm always subject to correction.

In the case of truck vs freight size. FedEx Custom Critical tariffs are generally based on the weight/dimensions of the freight, not the size of the truck. For example...If a "D" truck finds his "C" load weighs more than 5000#, a quick call to the carrier will be followed by a call to the customer and the prices get changed to "D" money or the overage part of the freight comes off the truck. This also applies to six standard skids ordered, becoming eight skids at pickup.

There are always exceptions, but I believe the above to be the rule. Perhaps some all-knowing FedEx Custom Critical owner could weigh in on the subject.

 

[Packmule]

Terry,

Maybe I was not clear on how I phraised my statement about truck size.
When FXCC sells a contract to a customer they sell them a peticuliar size truck. "B" = 8"6" X 48" High and up to 2,500#. "C"= 16'X 108" High up to 5,000#. A "D" unit is 20' X 108" High up to 13,000#. I think I remember this correctly. The customer may then use any and all of the space provided in the contract of that truck. IF the customer uses more than the alotted amount the rate will go up to the next truck size.
So why would a carrier who has sold a customer a "B" rate for a "B" sized load want to put this on a larger truck and have to pay that truck a higher rate or expect him to carry this load at a smaller rate?
This is not the point being made! The point is why would a carrier pass up a Van driver to offer the load to a stright truck if the Van meets ALL of the customer requirements for that load. This also taking all things into consideration such as location, dwell time, and single or team status of each.
Again Does this happen? As you said "You bet it does".

Let me say again, as a C/D O/O I carried my share of true "B" loads
and they were not disguised as "C" freight. They were offered as "B" loads and listed on my tracking list as "B" loads. No secrets there.
Did I have a problem taking a 20"X 20" 250# load that met my profit margins for operation? No Sir !!! and sometimes glad to get it. But as I pulled out for pickup and would see 3 or 4 Vans from my company still sitting there, I couldn't help but wonder why I got the offer.
It could have been as you said the carrier was positioning my truck into an area and using the load to get me there. I don't know!?!?
As a "C" unit I have gotten loads when a "D" unit should have gotten the offer because they had more dwell time. Believe me it's quite akward to be having coffee with a team that had been sitting for 2 days and I had just pulled in 30 minutes earlier, and my phone rings with the offer.
This has happened more than once, can't explain that either.
So bottom line; Don't believe all that you are told and just take the good with the bad, and be thankful for what you get.
It ain't a perfect world and there ain't no perfect company.
and I still love this business.

Danny

 

[LDB]

As already mentioned, I get called because it's hazmat, it's too tall for anything but a Sprinter, it's too long to close the doors on a van, it requires a liftgate, it requires a dock high truck, it requires blankets, blocking etc., the customer isn't sure what they're going to send so they order enough truck for whatever they wind up with or any combination of same. I suspect sometimes it's trying to move a straight truck rather than have them sit too long and quit since they are harder to replace than vans. I don't have any way to know that up front though and often turn down those small loads because they don't pay enough.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
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Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[slfisher45]

My feeling about a load offer is if it fits my criteria for a run, I take it. I am not fool enough to say please take the offer back and give it to a van.
As far as scrutinizing a load: I sometimes wonder why the load I picked up was offered to me, based on the load size, (dimensions, weight, package count)and it generally obvious, ( no ramps at shipper, request by shipper or receiver for a dock high).
Sometimes the time frame is the issue. It could be a van turned down the load or urgency to get the closest vehicle.
Opinions aren't going to help you and I don't believe the drivers have an answer based on any facts other than their own experience or what the dispatcher told them....

 

[RLENT]

I know that the carrier we're currently with (just started with actually) has a policy of not overselling their customers as far as truck size goes. IOW, Dispatch will make it point to find out exactly what it is that the customer needs and then provide just that, given a truck is available of that size. If no unit of the required size is available, then the customer is given the option of using a larger sized unit at additional cost (the prevailing rate that the larger unit goes for)

Among other things, they view this type of practice (sending a larger truck for smaller truck load) as not in their own self-interest - if probably from no other reason than competition. Also that it isn't particularly fair for either the customer (who would be paying the higher rate when he didn't have to) or the o/o's with the smaller vehicles, whose pain is probably just real as a D-unit o/o when there is a lack of revenue. Personally I consider this to be a good ethical position to take - seems like fair play for all to me.

While I have no personal knowledge of how other carriers operate, I have read enough posts from over the last several years here on EO and elsewhere to get the general idea that "overselling" the customer is apparently a not uncommon practice at some carriers. I certainly could be wrong about that impression.

 

[terryandrene]

RLENT sez:

...If no unit of the required size is available, then the customer is given the option of using a larger sized unit at additional cost (the prevailing rate that the larger unit goes for)...

Way back when, Roberts Express established areas they called "Express Centers". These were generally large metropolitan areas, in and around which Roberts Express positioned layover trucks, in anticipation of expedite business. Their policy was that they would cause a truck to pickup expedited loads within 90 minutes of the customer's call. (There were exceptions such as PPG in Oak Creek, WI and Cleveland, OH were 15 minute pickups. Fisher Guide in Columbus, OH was 30 minutes and some Express Centers were 60 minutepickups)

The Roberts Express tariffs were based on weight and dimensions of the freight, so if a customer called in a 500# skid, they were quoted a price for the "B" load and assured that a truck would pickup within 90 minutes. If no van was available or the van refused the load, Roberts would send a larger truck, even a Tractor/trailer to get that skid, barring that, they'd hire an outside contractor to get the freight. Either way, they would get the freight for the quoted price and keep the customer.

Back to RLENT's quote above. If his carrier will always require more money for a straight truck to carry a van load, because they have no vans available, I predict they will be a short-life-span carrier. I do, however, hope that RLENT has a long and successful expedite career.

 

[Intimadator]

> As a van o/o, I haven't any definite knowledge of it
>happening, but it makes sense: carriers and drivers will
>generally act in their own best interests. Being no
>exception to that rule, I'm planning to move up to a D unit,
>as soon as I find an honest owner who is willing to put a
>solo in a truck.
> I really believe that there will always be a need for
>cargo vans, but the supply is outstripping the demand right
>now. B unit freight can go on a C or D unit, but the reverse
>is impossible.

 

[fastman_1]

Yea The big trucks have gotten my Freight so I don't feel bad when I can sneak that #2700 on my van.







































Owner/Operator since 1979
Expediter since 1997
B Unit Semi Retired
Somedays are Diamonds and Somedays are Stones
Home is Wherever you Park.
The Price of Freedom is Written on the Wall.

 

[NoProblem]

As a Carrier, what I can say is that if a so called “A†or “B†load pays well enough to put on a straight truck - or even a semi truck for that matter, obviously the carrier will absolutely do whatever the carrier can do - to load the cargo van first, because under most circumstances, it only means a bigger profit for the carrier.

Regardless of vehicle size, whoever is first out, gets the offer first - depending on circumstances.

No tricks, no lie, no kidding and no “passing overâ€...........*BUT* --- never rule out just good old fashion ignorance.

I’m not speaking for every carrier out there, - and I may well be wrong - but it’s only my opinion that the majority of non-FX-CC carriers out there operate in a similar fashion.

All that being said, you may be surprised at just how many T/Ts out there are expediting a 30 lb box in a 53' trailer.

 

[RLENT]

Terry,

"I predict they will be a short-life-span carrier."

Well I dunno what you consider a short life-span. but the carrier in question has been in business (incorporated) since the early 90's ....... That's nearly not as long as Roberts ... but it ain't no flash in the pan either. The owner was with TriState (and s/one else ...... dunno who) before that as an o/o and prior to that had run large trucks OTR. In fact I was talking to him just the other day and asked him how he got started and why he ended up forming his own company. The answer to the latter: "I just got tried to being lied to" (by dispatch, the company, etc.) - which ties back to what s/one (Turtle ?) said on the subject of van loads maybe in the Sprinter thread.

Obviously the Express Center strategy (and using big trucks for small loads) has worked well for Roberts/FECC - well enough for others to copy it. But perhaps it has come at some cost to someone - mostly from o/o's pocket is my guess - possibly in limiting the amount they can produce in terms of revenue per year, their profitabilty individually or by vehicle sizes, or the average profitability of their entire fleet. (Yes - I am aware that FECC is probably at the top of the heap .... even so ......)

It makes sense from an operational principal - at least from the company's perspective, where they have some fairly fixed overhead in terms of their backend operation. It probably costs them a fairly static number to process a shipment thru their system. Any load they turn away is one they don't get any percentage of - it's just money lost. The o/o on the otherhand is faced with actually having to try to operate profitably - whether it is because of reduced total revenue (van loads going to bigger units) or marginal loads (bigger units accepting small truck loads at a reduced or discounted rate than they would normally earn based on their vehicle.)

I notice that you said Roberts Express' tariffs were based on the weight and dimensions of the freight - is that still true for FECC ? I ask because when you go up to the website and punch the "Get Rates & Transit Times" you get a screen where you punch in point of origin and destination zipcodes and then hit the "Get Rates" button and you will get a price quote and transit time - by vehicle type and capacity - not by dimensional weight of the freight. It's all broken down by linehaul charges, FSC, pick up and transit times etc. And is notated "Prices are determined by vehicle size and distance and calculated based on the prevailing FedEx Custom Critical general commodity tariff in effect on date quote is provided."

Obviously they may have specific contracts with certain customers where they discount rates, etc.

Thanks for thoughts as to us having long and sucessful expedite career - if we do anywhere near as well as you and Rene have done I'd consider that an outstanding success. BTW, I'm still trying to find some of those good doormats ..... and Lynn says "Hello."

 

[RLENT]

obviously the carrier will absolutely do whatever the carrier can do - to load the cargo van first, because under most circumstances, it only means a bigger profit for the carrier.

Steve,

Unless the carrier pays the o/o by fixed percentage of total revenue of the load - in that case it would seem that the bigger truck you can book the load on, the more revenue you will earn - provided we are talking about full rate being charged for any given truck size used to actually run the load and the percentage being the same for all truck sizes. Hmmmm .... maybe we are getting to what could be a motivating factor - book it on a larger vehicle and earn more revenue for the company

Dunno ... maybe I am missing something here .......

 

[NoProblem]

RLENT,

I can only speak for this carrier - - - but;

While many carriers, including Fedex-CC, use percentage based pay, based on literally 100s of phone calls from drivers I've spoken with, I believe that most carriers pay flat rate based on truck size.

Regardless, if/when the customer is willing to pay up to an "E" rate for a "A" load, if the CV is available, the Cargo Van wins that load offer first every time - provided the CV is first out.

Again, this is only my opinion and only applies for non-fedex-cc types.

Packmule seems to run for Landstar and I'm not really sure how Landstar pays - if they pay based on percentage, then I am guessing that Landstar commands a high enough price for CV loads to freely offer those loads to whatever size trucks they choose too - without regard to any "first out" policy.

 

[terryandrene]

>...I notice that you said Roberts Express' tariffs were based
>on the weight and dimensions of the freight - is that still
>true for FECC ?..."Prices are determined by vehicle size and
>distance and calculated based on the prevailing FedEx Custom
>Critical general commodity tariff in effect on date quote is
>provided."


I once had a copy of the Roberts Express tariffs in which they discussed charges based on weight/dimensions as related to vehicle type. I believe it is still the case, but I have no documentation to support that belief. As you quoted, prices are determined by vehicle size, but vehicle size is determined by weight/size capacities. The bottom line is when a customer is quoted a price by a customer service agent at our carrier, they stand by that quote, even if they have to send a larger truck to accomodate the customer. I think that a carrier that never acts similarly will lose a customer to another carrier if they insist on straight truck prices to carry van freight,
just because no vans are available.

 

[Packmule]

Leo said:

<"I suspect sometimes it's trying to move a straight truck rather than have them sit too long and quit since they are harder to replace than vans.">

Well thats a great attitude for a company to have!! I'm sure that the recruiter tells this to all perspective van owners when they are in their recruiting process. And likewise I feel sure this is covered in detail during orentation so the van owners will know their place in the company and not be surprised to loose a load to a larger truck for no reason. And to know that you are a dime a dozen comodity that can easly be replaced!
To me this sounds like the way to build team loyality and trust! Ha!
And then wonder why turnover is so high?? Contractor retention is a Joke if no one can trust what his Carrier tells them. If they will stick it to one contractor,they will stick it to another weather he is delivering on a bicycle or a $200,000.00 truck. It is still wrong to be misled and used as a pawn.
Does it happen? You bet it does!!! Will it continue to happen? You bet it will!! As they say "Nothing personal....just business!!!

No thanks I don't need any cheese.....

Just making a point, That's all.

Danny

 

[RLENT]

Steve,

Got it - that's sounds like it's as it should be ...... at least in my book.