One more against the ACLU

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
Another on the wrong side of the issue but since the ACLU operates under the 80/20 rule and their 80 is wrong it's no surprise.

Florida Gov. Rick Scott signs law requiring welfare recipients to take drug test, ACLU objects - New York Daily News


I wouldn't be surprised if the ACLU wins this one and it's ridiculous. If I don't pass a drug test, I cannot work and pay taxes, the taxes that provide these "entitlements" to others. I'd like to see ALL 50 states adopt this one and I cannot imagine what the left's argument against this will be but I'm sure there will be one.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I wouldn't be surprised if the ACLU wins this one, either, and it's not all that ridiculous. The argument is a Constitutional one, against unreasonable search and seizure, the right to privacy, self-incrimination, and in having to prove your innocence.

Having people on welfare drug tested sounds like a really good and reasonable idea, but there is simply no way to implement it without trampling on people's rights, including those who never do drugs. And I've never seen the government shy away from trampling on a right when they think they can get away with it.

Urinalysis reveals not only the presence of illegal drugs, but also the presence of perfectly legal drugs administered for medical conditions. It also reveals the existence of many other physical and medical conditions, like pregnancy, and genetic predisposition to disease. In 1988, the Washington, D.C. Police Department admitted it used urine samples collected for drug tests to screen female employees for pregnancy, without their knowledge or consent. Naaaa, that's not an invasion of privacy at all. <snort>

Drug testing laws are all about balancing the employer's business need for the test against the employee's right to privacy. The stronger interest prevails. Even if the employee shows that his or her reasonable expectation of privacy has been infringed upon by the testing, drug testing is still lawful if the employer can demonstrate that its legitimate business need for the test outweighs the employee's privacy rights. The employer is on strongest ground when the employee's job deals with the safety or security of others, or when it has a reasonable suspicion that the employee is using drugs at work. On the other hand, employers' needs are considered weaker when these factors do not apply, especially if the test is administered without notice or in a particularly intrusive manner.

"You're poor, so we think you are on drugs. Now you have to prove to us that you're not on drugs." There's simply no way that's gonna fly with an employer because it lacks a safety or other legitimate business need. It especially won't fly when it is THE STATE trying to pull something like that.

The Constitution applies to everybody, whether you like them or not. As bad as it is when liberals want to dispense with some or all of the Constitution to suit their wants and desires, no matter how fiercely they try to defend doing so, it's just as bad when conservatives do the same thing, maybe even worse, since many conservative routinely like to bash people over the head with the Constitution. You can't pick and choose which parts of the Constitution you want to selectively apply to people.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Turtle, don't bother.

If you all want to solve the problem and not have the ACLU involved, end welfare.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Turtle, don't bother.

If you all want to solve the problem and not have the ACLU involved, end welfare.

Let me guess, when somone tells you that they are having a problem with their Windows computer, your solution is to tell them to get a Mac. <snort>
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
"You're poor, so we think you are on drugs. Now you have to prove to us that you're not on drugs."

Sometimes it sounds like the reason is more "You're poor, so we don't want to think you may be enjoying even one minute of your miserable worthless life." [Because the only possible reason for being on welfare is pure laziness, right?]
If this is ok, how about refusing benefits to anyone who drinks alcohol, smokes, or eats too much?
H#ll, let's just put them in debtors prison again, that'll teach 'em. :(


 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
So we can make the same argument? "You're a trucker, therefore we think you do drugs." Um... that won't fly. The fact is, there is no RIGHT to welfare. Therefore, there can be stipulations. If you don't like it, get off welfare. If we don't like it, we don't have to drive a truck. Got it?

Cheri... yes, there should be alcohol and cigarettes banned. Welfare is not intended for those things. It is for putting a roof over your head, food in your gut, and cheap clothes on your back. Not a hoopty mobile, the latest Lady Gaga cd, or 1 billion channels of cable. I'm sure if they did this people would miraculously find it in themselves that work isn't so bad.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Sometimes it sounds like the reason is more "You're poor, so we don't want to think you may be enjoying even one minute of your miserable worthless life." [Because the only possible reason for being on welfare is pure laziness, right?]
If this is ok, how about refusing benefits to anyone who drinks alcohol, smokes, or eats too much?

So the only way to enjoy life, at least for people with insufficient resources, is through illegal drugs thereby wasting money they don't have to begin with? We're really comparing illegal drugs to legal although partially stupid choices?
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
So the only way to enjoy life, at least for people with insufficient resources, is through illegal drugs thereby wasting money they don't have to begin with? We're really comparing illegal drugs to legal although partially stupid choices?

"The only way" ? No, nor is it a smart way - but it IS the one way to express outrage over what poor people are perceived to be, [or do or have], because it's illegal.
I recall the outrage over a poor person having things such as tattoos - guess it isn't possible that they were paid for when the person was employed, or were a gift, huh? [My younger daughter, who works 2 jobs, has a tattoo that was a gift, is why I thought of it.]
I just get sick of the attitude that the poor deserve to be treated with contempt, simply because they are poor. One surprising fact I read last week is that many companies simply won't hire anyone who is currently unemployed - but people say "Just get a job!" like there's no reason one can't find a job these days. There's a LOT of reasons, and dismissing the unfortunates caught up in it won't help anyone.


 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Probably an easier solution. Just make the drug test voluntary. If they don't want it, then they have to work to recieve their benefits after a certain period of time.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
So we can make the same argument? "You're a trucker, therefore we think you do drugs." Um... that won't fly. The fact is, there is no RIGHT to welfare. Therefore, there can be stipulations. If you don't like it, get off welfare. If we don't like it, we don't have to drive a truck. Got it?
Who gets to make the call as to those stipulations? The Minnesota State Police who wants to know if you have one-handed magazines in the sleeper? At least they have a plausible (albeit laughable) safety reason behind it. No, you can't just willy nilly slap on stipulations because you don't like someone or because you think they might be doing something bad, illegal, or against your own personal morals. They don't test truckers because, "You're a trucker, therefore we think you do drugs." With trucking, the primary overriding concern is the safety of the public, which trumps privacy. That's why they test truckers. So yes, it does fly.

When the FMCSA institutes a ruling, they have to justify that ruling. Granted, they've come up a little short in that regard with HoS and CSA2010 reporting, but they still have to justify it somehow by using something other than, "because I said so", and that's precisely the justification that people are trying to use when it comes to shredding people's rights in drug testing welfare recipients. There's simply no practical reason to test, other than you don't like people on welfare mooching off tax dollars. Well, I don't like it either, but I'm not going to tell someone who doesn't use drugs to, "prove it, and while you're proving it, I'm gonna see what kind of medical conditions you have. No, don't worry, I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
So we can make the same argument? "You're a trucker, therefore we think you do drugs." Um... that won't fly. The fact is, there is no RIGHT to welfare. Therefore, there can be stipulations. If you don't like it, get off welfare. If we don't like it, we don't have to drive a truck. Got it?
There are no lack of 'stipulations' in place to collecting welfare. Jeez, I remember collecting unemployment for 6 wks every year [the first 5, anyway] when I was laid off, the rules and requirements were stiff and the process took hours every week and the people who worked for the state treated us like we were criminals who just hadn't been caught yet - I'm sure that collecting welfare is even worse than that.
I don't like being drug tested - but as for getting another job? I used to be able to get jobs I wasn't qualified for, now I can't get the ones I am qualified for, because there's always someone even more qualified. If you haven't had the pleasure of looking for a job the past 10 years, you have no idea.

Cheri... yes, there should be alcohol and cigarettes banned. Welfare is not intended for those things. It is for putting a roof over your head, food in your gut, and cheap clothes on your back. Not a hoopty mobile, the latest Lady Gaga cd, or 1 billion channels of cable. I'm sure if they did this people would miraculously find it in themselves that work isn't so bad.

Would it be ok if the poor people sing in church, or is that too much like enjoying themselves?:rolleyes:
Even if I agreed on a philosophical level, on the practical level, it isn't remotely possible to 'ban' possession of legal items from anyone.
Ps Are you equally disgusted at the corporations who accept tax incentives and pack up and leave town when they expire? Cause I don't hear any outrage over their behavior.....
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If people are using their own money then anything legal should be an option. If people are using taxpayer money then restrictions on buying cirrhosis or cancer are not unreasonable. Neither group should be allowed to buy illegal substances.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Corporate welfare is a little different. In that, the government is actually giving corporations back their own money... and the Dems call it welfare. I call it a tax break.

Turtle... it has nothing to do with if I like them or not. It has to do with them using taxpayer money to buy illegal substances which are the biggest contributor to crime in this country. I believe all government employees should go through the same thing... just as the military does. I don't see any 'right' to that government check. If you receive one, I want you to prove you're on the up and up.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Let me guess, when somone tells you that they are having a problem with their Windows computer, your solution is to tell them to get a Mac. <snort>

No not mac, why waste the hardware - Linux.

Cheri,
We don't have poor people in this country. What we have in many many cases are people who are no where near poor by the world's standards - many drive better cars than my wife and I do, they have new cloths, and are fed better (a lot better in many cases).

Overall I don't care about the drug use among those receiving welfare, but I do think there should be an asset based qualification with a full disclosure of their assets with a sale of them to qualify those who can afford not to take welfare to first do what they need to do to make ends meet and then be able to get help.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
We don't have poor people in this country. What we have in many many cases are people who are no where near poor by the world's standards

Just to add a visual to gregs statement, I have never see a pic of people living like this in our country (even in Detroit and
Appalachia).

SuperStock_1890-14940.jpg
 
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