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Hazmat question

jlarry

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If you are caring less than 1001 lbs, is the driver required to have paper work in the cab with him? This is non placarded material.
 

mzraik

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If you are caring less than 1001 lbs, is the driver required to have paper work in the cab with him? This is non placarded material.
Hazmat is Hazmat! Papers within the drivers reach, just like the big rig's.
 

sthfl2000

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Any hazmat...papers in door pouch, within arms reach when driving if no pouch and when vehicle is vacated papers on seat...any hazmat...I trust u have hazmat on your license too regardless of amount.
 

Turtle

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Unless whatever you are hauling requires placards, the endorsement is not required.
 

sthfl2000

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Incorrect...endorsement required for any labeled DOT regulated hazmat regardless of quantity...at least per my state CDL test
 

sthfl2000

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I stand semi-corrected...but I doubt anyone is getting any type of hazmat training...

3/28/2012
When a Hazmat Endorsement is Required on Your Commercial Driver's License [49 CFR 383.91]
Transportation

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) has established standards for the testing and licensing of commercial driver's license (CDL) holders.
A holder of a CDL who operates a commercial motor vehicle (CMV) that must be placarded for hazardous materials shipped must also obtain the Hazmat (H - Hazardous Materials) endorsement for the CDL.

As defined at 49 CFR 383.5, commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle is in one of the CMV groups defined in 49 CFR 383.91. CMV Group C includes any vehicle used in the transportation of any material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under Subpart F of 49 CFR 172 or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR 73.

The Hazmat endorsement requires training, testing, and a TSA threat assessment. Other endorsements may be required based on the types of vehicle or passengers.

Drivers with no Hazmat endorsement on their CDLs may transport quantities of hazardous materials that do not require placards, but hazardous materials training per 49 CFR 172 Subpart H is still required. To meet your mandatory hazardous materials training and testing requirements, attend Environmental Resource Center's DOT Hazardous Materials Training: The Complete Course seminar or webcast.
 

Turtle

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Those without CDLs (driving unregulated vehicles like cargo vans) can haul non-placardable Table 2 materials and are not required to have any HAZMAT training, since those rules only apply to people who drive CMVs. The same is also true for the placement of HAZMAT shipping papers within the cab of the vehicle, as those only apply to drivers of CMVs.
 
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BobWolf

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This is just one reason I dont transport anything that will glow in the dark or detonate.

Bob Wolf.
 

ATeam

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If you are caring less than 1001 lbs, is the driver required to have paper work in the cab with him? This is non placarded material.
A few months ago, Turtle and I got into a long and detailed debate about HAZMAT. It happened because we did not agree on the question before we started. Given Turtle's answer above, it could happen again. So, before providing an answer to THE QUESTION ASKED, I want to clarify the question. After we agree on the question, the debate about the answer can begin, if one is needed (it's not).

jlarry:

1. You stated that the weight is less than 1,001 lbs. That is clear enough.

2. Regarding your term "non placarded materal," by that do you mean that the truck or van transporting this material is not required to display HAZMAT placards?

3. You did not state what it is exactly that weighs less than 1,001 lbs. The title of your post suggests HAZMAT of some sort, but what kind of cargo are you talking about exactly? If it is HAZMAT, how do you know? If it is HAZMAT, it will have a proper shipping name. Can you tell us what that name is?

4. Your term "paper work" is also vague. Can you clarify? Are you talking about shipping papers on which the material being transported is designated as HAZMAT?

5. Finally, what kind of vehicle will be used to transport this shipment? Truck? Van? Please be specific and include the GVWR.

Turtle, before providing answers, is there anything else we need to know to further define THE QUESTION ASKED?
 
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Turtle

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Turtle, before providing answers, is there anything else we need to know to further define THE QUESTION ASKED?
I don't think so. I think that covers it. And I agree that the details from your questions need to be clarified in order to give any kind of useful or precise answer.

I also think, for the sake of practicality, that an example which expediters can be typically confronted with can be construed as an illustration. For example, let's say the freight is one skid weighing 350 pounds containing four regular Group 31 wet-cell truck batteries (UN2794, Class 8 Corrosive). The vehicle to haul the freight is a Ford E-350 cargo van.

In this example, you would not have to have a CDL or a HAZMAT endorsement to haul that freight. The shipper would have to have the paperwork properly completed, complete with Emergency Response and telephone contact information, as wet-cell batteries are classified as a Hazardous Substance, but you as the driver will not have to do anything different with that paperwork than you would with any other bills of lading that you carry with the shipment.

So, the simple answer to the question is yes, you do have to have the paperwork in the cab with the driver, but not because it's HAZMAT, but rather because FMCSA regulations state, "A copy of the bill of lading must accompany a shipment at all times while in your (or your agent's) possession. Before the vehicle leaves the residence of origin, the bill of lading must be in the possession of the driver responsible for the shipment." This is a requirement for all shipments, HAZMAT or not. But you do not have to leave it on the seat if you exit the vehicle, or have that paperwork tabbed, or any of the other special provisions that must be made for HAZMAT paperwork.

Using the same example above, with the single change being that the vehicle is a regulated Commercial Motor Vehicle that meets the criteria for the definition of a CMV instead of a cargo van, then the paperwork requirements change, as those driving a CMV must handle HAZMAT paperwork in the same manner regardless of whether the shipment requires placarding.
 

jlarry

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Question # 2 is correct. I'm hauling household material thet is for grocery stores. I was told I didn't need to placard the trailer.
A few months ago, Turtle and I got into a long and detailed debate about HAZMAT. It happened because we did not agree on the question before we started. Given Turtle's answer above, it could happen again. So, before providing an answer to THE QUESTION ASKED, I want to clarify the question. After we agree on the question, the debate about the answer can begin, if one is needed (it's not). jlarry:1. You stated that the weight is less than 1,001 lbs. That is clear enough.2. Regarding your term "non placarded materal," by that do you mean that the truck or van transporting this material is not required to display HAZMAT placards? 3. You did not state what it is exactly that weighs less than 1,001 lbs. The title of your post suggests HAZMAT of some sort, but what kind of cargo are you talking about exactly? If it is HAZMAT, how do you know? If it is HAZMAT, it will have a proper shipping name. Can you tell us what that name is? 4. Your term "paper work" is also vague. Can you clarify? Are you talking about shipping papers on which the material being transported is designated as HAZMAT?5. Finally, what kind of vehicle will be used to transport this shipment? Truck? Van? Please be specific and include the GVWR.Turtle, before providing answers, is there anything else we need to know to further define THE QUESTION ASKED?
 

ATeam

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So, the simple answer to the question is yes, you do have to have the paperwork in the cab with the driver, but not because it's HAZMAT, but rather because FMCSA regulations state, "A copy of the bill of lading must accompany a shipment at all times while in your (or your agent's) possession. Before the vehicle leaves the residence of origin, the bill of lading must be in the possession of the driver responsible for the shipment." This is a requirement for all shipments, HAZMAT or not. But you do not have to leave it on the seat if you exit the vehicle, or have that paperwork tabbed, or any of the other special provisions that must be made for HAZMAT paperwork.
Well, I guess a debate about the right answer will be necessary. Turtle is incorrect. See: 49 CFR 177.817 Shipping papers.

A HAZMAT shipping paper and a bill of lading are not the same thing. If the material in question triggers the requirement for a HAZMAT shipping paper, the shipping paper triggers the following, and it does not matter what kind of vehicle is being driven. Vehicle type does not matter, quantity does not matter, the requirement to have a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL does not matter.

The question is about whether or not HAZMAT shipping papers must be carried in a particular way. The answer is yes. The shipping paper triggers the requirement. If a HAZMAT shipping paper exists, it must be treated as follows:

(e) Shipping paper accessibility—accident or inspection. A driver of a motor vehicle containing hazardous material, and each carrier using such a vehicle, shall ensure that the shipping paper required by this section is readily available to, and recognizable by, authorities in the event of accident or inspection. Specifically, the driver and the carrier shall:

(1) Clearly distinguish the shipping paper, if it is carried with other shipping papers or other papers of any kind, by either distinctively tabbing it or by having it appear first; and

(2) Store the shipping paper as follows:

(i) When the driver is at the vehicle's controls, the shipping paper shall be: (A) Within his immediate reach while he is restrained by the lap belt; and (B) either readily visible to a person entering the driver's compartment or in a holder which is mounted to the inside of the door on the driver's side of the vehicle.

(ii) When the driver is not at the vehicle's controls, the shipping paper shall be:

(A) In a holder which is mounted to the inside of the door on the driver's side of the vehicle; or (B) on the driver's seat in the vehicle.
 
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Turtle

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Dejavu again ?
Not at all. Phil is trying to apply FMCSA rules and regulations to vehicles and drivers over which the FMCSA has no authority. Drivers without a CDL and/or drivers who drive unregulated vehicles are not required, nor expected, to undergo HAZMAT training with respect to paperwork handling or anything else.
 
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ATeam

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Hazmat training has nothing to do with it.

If a HAZMAT shipping paper is required for the load being transported, that fact alone triggers the requirement for the driver to carry it in the prescribed manner. It's that simple. The fact that you may not have been trained how to do it does not exempt you from the requirement that you do it.

Turtle, I am not talking about FMCSA regulations. I am talking specifically about 49 CFR 177.817. That regulation is clear. Shipping papers must be carried in the circumstances and manner prescribed by the reg. If you can show me in the regs how this reg does not apply to a certain class of drivers, I'm open to being corrected, but as I read them, there is nothing in any reg that exempts any driver from 49 CFR 177.817.

How do you know that you do not need a CDL to drive a cargo van? You know because the regulations require you have one to drive commercial vehicles. With limited exceptions, cargo vans do not fall under the definition of commercial vehicles so no CDL is needed to drive a van.

Van drivers do not need a CDL to drive a van because there is no rule that requires van drivers to have a CDL. When the regs talk about who is required to have a CDL, it talks about trucks. In other words, the regs are silent on the van question. Since they say nothing special about van driver licensing, no special license is needed to drive a van.

But with HAZMAT shipping papers, the regs are not silent. They are specific. There is a rule that requires any driver of any vehicle to carry HAZMAT shipping papers under specified circumstances and in specified ways.

It's not about what is not written, it's about what is written. And in the case of 49 CFR 177.817, what is written is very clear.
 
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ATeam

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What it's about is Scope and Applicability.
Exactly right.

And in the case of 49 CFR 177.817, the regulation applies at all times to all drivers of all vehicles of all kinds. You don't get a pass because you are in a cargo van.

How do I know that is true? I know by reading the regulation itself. It provides no exceptions regarding drivers and vehicles.

Now, Turtle, if you can find language elsewhere in the regulations that specifically exempts cargo van or other drivers from 49 CFR 177.817, I will happily admit my error. But I have checked and found no such exemptions, so I stand by my answer.
 
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