Death by DeSantis

ATeam

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It's not just FL, but six other states as well - all Red. Autocracy is what happens when a radical political party gets control of the White House and Congress. The states should be dealing with these pharmaceutical companies directly.

I'm not so sure about that. As a Floridian (former Minnesotan), I'm not pleased to learn that Florida's monoclonal antibody allocation has been capped. But I'm also mindful of the PPE bidding war that broke out between the states early in the pandemic. Rich entities got equipment that was needed by all and many went without because they could not afford the price.

This treatment is a lifesaver and a money saver. Biden is correct to ramp up production. It should be ramped up even more to create a surplus of the stuff in all states.

I'm all for Florida getting as much of the stuff as it might ever need. But if you are from Ohio and there is a shortage there, you may not feel the same about Florida's abundance.
 
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muttly

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You're being overly generous with your use of the word "fact."

I own a pulse oximeter which measures the oxygen level in your blood. I've checked. Whether I'm wearing a mask for a short time or a long time, it makes no difference. My blood oxygen levels remain the same. I've done this in resting states, like when sitting at my desk or reading a book. I've done it when working out in the gym when my heart rate is elevated for an hour or more. Mask on or off, a mask makes no difference in my blood oxygen levels.

It is simply not true that you get less oxygen when wearing a mask.
Are you wearing the mask correctly or incorrectly like seemingly most people do? Below their nose, constantly adjusting it and taking it off. I’ve yet to see anyone in my office environment not fiddle with their mask. People are constantly touching it and adjusting it below their nose so they can be more comfortable and breathe better during any type of exertion.
 
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muttly

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I'm all for Florida getting as much of the stuff as it might ever need. But if you are from Ohio and there is a shortage there, you may not feel the same about Florida's abundance.
The Biden team dropped the ball on that. Monoclonal has been around longer than the vaccine. Trump used it about a year ago. There should be ample supplies for everyone already. It should have been already ramped up months ago in sufficient enough numbers. The rest of the country including Ohio should already be well stocked so that the Florida governor shouldn’t have to buy from the UK to offset the amount being rationed and taken away.
 
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muttly

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If that's the case, why are Florida's virus numbers (case count, hospitalizations, deaths) per 100,000 people consistently higher than most other states?
Are there not enough vaccine sites available down there? From what I’ve read it’s easily available. Monoclonal has been implemented and rates have gone down. He also implemented proper protections for the most vulnerable and elderly early on in the pandemic as well as vaccinated them first. Florida has many people that visit the heavily populated state. He has also allowed businesses to stay open for the most part without the mandates. I’m not sure what else you want him to do?
 
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ATeam

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Are you wearing the mask correctly or incorrectly like seemingly most people do? Below their nose, constantly adjusting it and taking it off. I’ve yet to see anyone in my office environment not fiddle with their mask. People are constantly touching it and adjusting it below their nose so they can be more comfortable and breathe better during any type of exertion.
For the purpose of testing oxygen levels in my blood, I wore the mask correctly (over the nose and mouth), which is how I usually wear a mask when worn. I spent a recent day in airports and planes where the mask could only be removed for eating and drinking. No problem. It's not hard to properly wear a mask and keep it on for hours at a time. It's not fun either. But it can be done with little difficulty.
 
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ATeam

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Are there not enough vaccine sites available down there? From what I’ve read it’s easily available. Monoclonal has been implemented and rates have gone down. He also implemented proper protections for the most vulnerable and elderly early on in the pandemic as well as vaccinated them first. Florida has many people that visit the heavily populated state. He has also allowed businesses to stay open for the most part without the mandates. I’m not sure what else you want him to do?
When I responded to your post, which said, "DeSantis is doing a great job with managing the virus issue," I did not do so to say what I wanted him to do. I did so to question the veracity of your claim.

Florida's virus numbers (case count, hospitalizations and deaths) are terrible compared to many other states. Such results do not support a claim that Florida's governor is "doing a great job." To the extent that any state governor can influence pandemic outcomes, it would seem that no state governor is doing a great job, and many are doing a better job than DeSantis.

To answer your questions, yes, vaccines are readily available in Florida. Yes, Monoclonal antibody treatments have been implemented. And yes, the rates of new covid infections, hospitalizations and deaths have gone down.

But on that last point, "gone down" is a relative term. Florida is coming off a peak that is way higher than any peak that came before. If you look at the chart below, you'll see there have been three major peaks in Florida's Covid-19 case count. The hospitalization and death charts closely parallel the new-case chart but with a delay because it takes time for the disease to progress as it does.

Let's call the peaks:

Summer, 2020
Winter, 2020-21
Fall, 2021

Notice that each peak is characterized by a sharp rise followed by a sharp decline of approximately equal duration to the rise.

The first vaccine in Florida was given in Dec. 2020, and it took several months for the vaccines to become widely available. The first Florida monoclonal antibody treatment site was opened in August, 2021, and 24 more were opened quickly after that.

Notice that the Summer 2020, and Winter 2020-21, curves trended sharply down before the vaccines and antibody treatments existed, or the vaccines existed with enough availability to have an alleged impact.

You're saying the vaccines and treatments drove down the Fall, 2021, case count. But if so, what drove the previous ones down? And if something else drove down the previous two, why should we believe that the vaccines and antibody treatments drove down the Fall, 2021, count.

Also, if the vaccines and antibody treatments were widely available before the Summer 2021, peak (which they were), and if DeSantis is doing a "great job" managing the virus, why did that peak happen at all? Why was that peak massively higher than the two preceding peaks? If the DeSantis vaccine and antibody actions are supposed to be effective, should not have the third peak been avoided altogether?

Frankly, given the numbers and Gov. DeSantis's actions, the case simply cannot be made that DeSantis has done a "great job" managing the virus. He gets a lot of well-deserved praise for keeping the economy running. Florida's economy is booming. But that comes at a price; shown in part in the chart below.

You can access the charts for the nation and all states by clicking this link. If you look at the national chart and that of many states, you'll see that Florida's third peak is massively higher than most. Doing that, it is again difficult to substantiate the claim that DeSantis is going a "great job" managing the virus.



Florida Covid-19 Cases.pngThere have been three
 
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muttly

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When I responded to your post, which said, "DeSantis is doing a great job with managing the virus issue," I did not do so to say what I wanted him to do. I did so to question the veracity of your claim. Florida's virus numbers (case count, hospitalizations and deaths) are terrible compared to many other states. Such results do not support a claim that Florida's governor is "going a great job." To the extent that any state governor can influence pandemic outcomes, it would seem that no state governor is doing a great job and many are doing a better job than DeSantis.
From what he can control in the pandemic( which is not much) he has taken the right approach and has done a fine job given the circumstances. Again, he has for the most part protected the elderly and most vulnerable early on and vaccinated them first early on. He’s also made available easy accessibility of vaccines sites. Last time I checked Florida ranked 18 out of 50 with vaccine rates. Also consider that the state has a heavy amount of minorities in certain areas that have been reluctant to get the vaccine as well as a large amount of so called “MAGA” people who have been hesitant as well. Quite a combination to drive down vaccination rates. But still good numbers considering all of that. He’s not for mask mandates, which at best, would have a negligible affect on infection rates. The state also has a heavy influx of visitors from other states that vacation there. That would seem to have a lot to do with infection rates. But he is also pushing the monoclonal antibodies which is a very effective treatment when done early enough( at least 70% roughly). That has helped greatly with the numbers dropping considerably from the previous surge.
C555F985-2362-43C6-A00F-06B2E416DF5D.jpeg
 
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ATeam

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Again, he has for the most part protected the elderly and most vulnerable early on and vaccinated them first early on. He’s also made available easy accessibility of vaccines sites. Last time I checked Florida ranked 18 out of 50 with vaccine rates. Also consider that the state has a heavy amount of minorities in certain areas that have been reluctant to get the vaccine as well as a large amount of so called “MAGA” people who have been hesitant as well. Quite a combination to drive down vaccination rates. But still good numbers considering all of that. He’s not for mask mandates, which at best, would have a negligible affect on infection rates. The state also has a heavy influx of visitors from other states that vacation there. That would seem to have a lot to do with infection rates. But he is also pushing the monoclonal antibodies which is a very effective treatment when done early enough( at least 70% roughly). That has helped greatly with the numbers dropping considerably from the previous surge.
Repeating the case you previously made does not make it stronger.
 
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muttly

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For the purpose of testing oxygen levels in my blood, I wore the mask correctly (over the nose and mouth), which is how I usually wear a mask when worn. I spent a recent day in airports and planes where the mask could only be removed for eating and drinking. No problem. It's not hard to properly wear a mask and keep it on for hours at a time. It's not fun either. But it can be done with little difficulty.
I don't see masks being worn properly with any amount of consistency...anywhere.
 
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muttly

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Repeating the case you previously made does not make it stronger.
Florida is one of the top three most visited states for tourists. Most likely heavily increasing to the infected numbers.
Please list anything you think he should have done differently.
 
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Pilgrim

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I don't see masks being worn properly with any amount of consistency...anywhere.
As more people get vaccinated and/or develop natural immunity it stands to reason that we'll see less mask usage, and for good reason. After all, aren't our doctors assuring us that the vaccines and natural immunities work?
 
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muttly

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As more people get vaccinated and/or develop natural immunity it stands to reason that we'll see less mask usage, and for good reason. After all, aren't our doctors assuring us that the vaccines and natural immunities work?
I've seen reports that natural immunity is better and lasts longer. But vaccines work( at least temporarily) effectively from severe illness or worse for the most part.
I've heard doctors say though that we should be using other therapeutics as well to clamp down on the virus because vaccines alone won't do it. They don't prevent people from getting it or transmitting it.( Which is very disappointing )And there is also a concern from some doctors that vaccinations may be causing more people to get infected. And I hoped that isn't true.
 
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Pilgrim

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Just some anecdotal info: my daughter and I had covid back in February, so we have natural antibodies. I also had a monoclonal treatment, which worked great, BTW. Per doctor's advice we each had one vaccination (Moderna) last month as a booster; I'd taken an antibody test and it showed my levels to be "just below average" whatever that means, but it might indicate that the natural immunities do weaken with time. My wife and 12 yr-old granddaughter have both been vaccinated. Two weeks ago we were exposed by one of the granddaughter's unvaccinated friends who tested positive for the dreaded Delta variant on Wed. She spent Sat and Sun at our house was close to all of us at some point during the weekend.
None of us caught it.
 

muttly

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I heard some doctors theorizing that the second shot of the two part vaccination dose should have been delayed much longer. Having the second shot within 3 weeks of the initial one may have created just the equivalent of one dose. Something about the second shot being more effective if delayed having a much better and longer lasting booster response.
I got the Moderna back in March. But don’t know what my current antibody levels are.
 

ATeam

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Florida is one of the top three most visited states for tourists. Most likely heavily increasing to the infected numbers.
Please list anything you think he should have done differently.
Florida tourism is down sharply due to COVID-19. Statistics showing that effect are readily available. I have not seen any data saying, one way or another, that tourism increases the COVID-119 case count. A quick Google search of that question produces no results that are helpful. On what do you base your claim that tourism to Florida (or any other destination) increases the COVID-19 case count there?

You say inbound tourism increases the case count. But with no data, I can just as easily say it has no effect. I've not had occasion to think about this aspect of the pandemic so I'm open to info either way. But you can't make an unsubstantiated claim about tourism and expect it to be accepted.

One might plead common sense, but don't be too quick to do that. Florida is a COVID-19 hot spot. The virus is more active here than most other states. Common sense would suggest Florida would be an exporter of COVID-19 as uninfected tourists from lower-case-count states come here, catch the virus and bring it back home. Common sense does not suggest that people coming here from lower case-count states would somehow raise the infection rate here.

But both views based on common sense are not substianted at all. So again I ask, on what do ou base your claim that tourism to Florida (or any other destination) increases the COVID-19 case count there?
 
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ATeam

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Florida is one of the top three most visited states for tourists. Most likely heavily increasing to the infected numbers.
Please list anything you think he should have done differently.
You say Florida is one of the top three most visited states for tourists. What are the other two? Might the three states be compared to see what impact, if any, inbound tourism has on all three?
 

ATeam

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I don't see masks being worn properly with any amount of consistency...anywhere.
Agreed. So the problem is not that masks are ineffective. The problem is that improperly worn masks are ineffective. That's no small problem to fix. Kinda like driver's training. The problem is not that cars are unsafe. The problem is people operate them in a way that makes them unsafe.

People who say masks don't work are correct, not because the masks themselves don't work, but because people don't wear them right, thereby rendering them ineffective.

We have an AED in our gm. If someone went down with a heart attack but no one tried to use the AED to try to save him or her, do you conclude that AED's do not work and should not be required in gyms for that reason? Or to you take the more intelligent and nuanced view that the problem is with the people, not the device and if you want the problem fixed, you have to deal with the shoe that fits?
 
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ATeam

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I've seen reports that natural immunity is better and lasts longer. But vaccines work( at least temporarily) effectively from severe illness or worse for the most part.
I've heard doctors say though that we should be using other therapeutics as well to clamp down on the virus because vaccines alone won't do it. They don't prevent people from getting it or transmitting it.( Which is very disappointing )And there is also a concern from some doctors that vaccinations may be causing more people to get infected. And I hoped that isn't true.
Whatever you have heard doctors say, I can find doctors who say the exact opposite or nearly the exact opposite. If you are going to base any claim on what you heard doctors say, you thereby grant me the same ability, and if we cite what we heard doctors say to support our conflicting views, it's a stalemate.

Just today, I read a story about a doctor whose medical license was recently renewed, and through reports, I heard that doctor say the vaccines magnetize human beings, such that you can place a key or spoon on their forehead and it will stick due to magnetic force. I have been vaccinated and no key or spoon will stick to my forehead. But I heard a doctor say they would. I heard a doctor say this, so it must be true, right?
 
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ATeam

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Just some anecdotal info: my daughter and I had covid back in February, so we have natural antibodies. I also had a monoclonal treatment, which worked great, BTW. Per doctor's advice we each had one vaccination (Moderna) last month as a booster; I'd taken an antibody test and it showed my levels to be "just below average" whatever that means, but it might indicate that the natural immunities do weaken with time. My wife and 12 yr-old granddaughter have both been vaccinated. Two weeks ago we were exposed by one of the granddaughter's unvaccinated friends who tested positive for the dreaded Delta variant on Wed. She spent Sat and Sun at our house was close to all of us at some point during the weekend.
None of us caught it.
The trouble with anecdotal info is it's anecdotal. While info may be true in one case, it does not follow it will be true in others. Human beings are amazingly complex organisms and there are literally billions of variables that apply at the microscopic level that determine what a given outcome will be.

Some people take drugs and do not get addicted. Others take the same drugs and get addicted. Some people are allergic to peanuts. Others are not. If you are allergic to peanuts, it makes sense that you don't eat them. But would you advise the whole world to not eat them? Of course you wouldn't, because you understand what an allergy is and you know peanuts affect people differently.

As with peanuts, so too with all aspects of COVID-19. The way it plays out in one person may be quite different than the way it plays out in others.
 
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Pilgrim

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The trouble with anecdotal info is it's anecdotal. While info may be true in one case, it does not follow it will be true in others. Human beings are amazingly complex organisms and there are literally billions of variables that apply at the microscopic level that determine what a given outcome will be.

Some people take drugs and do not get addicted. Others take the same drugs and get addicted. Some people are allergic to peanuts. Others are not. If you are allergic to peanuts, it makes sense that you don't eat them. But would you advise the whole world to not eat them? Of course you wouldn't, because you understand what an allergy is and you know peanuts affect people differently.

As with peanuts, so too with all aspects of COVID-19. The way it plays out in one person may be quite different than the way it plays out in others.
Please refer to the first four words of the post.
 
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