I'm not sure what to make of this Tri- State is going to take away the flat rate of 1.20 pre mile and drop it to 1.05 but u get 65% of the line haul on all other loads. I'm just trying to figure out which makes me the most money. I have been looking around here and i see some other companies pay on the 65% or i seen some less but with fright being slow are there really any of 2 or 3 bucks a miles loads around anymore to make 65% worth having over the flat rate
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If Tristate is dropping rates things must be bad. From what i've seen Tristate is one of the three companies in the expediting industry that I have consistantly praised for maintaing a higher level of pay for their drivers as well as a decent fuel surcharge that has always been a few cents above the competition. The other companies being, Fedex and Landstar along with Panther (not for rates but for the generous fuel surcharge that they pass on to their drivers)!
There must be a major paradigm shift taking place that is bound to set the stage for permanently lowered rates in the future. Look folks, you can jump on me like others have and claim that companies who do not drop their rates will price themselves out of business; but that argument it a logical fallacy. The only thing that is going to happen with regards to freight prices dropping "even with higher charging expedite compenies" is a new and potentially dangerous future precedent of lower freight rates across the board from NLM all the way to government loads and pharmaceuticals.
What? Do you really think that customers are going to pay higher rates once the economy gets back on track after growing a custom to the bidding wars? I was very upset when I saw posted on a broker board "i'm not going to name by name which one it was" that said something very sobering in reference to a cargo van load that was being brokered on the site. It read; happy new years and remember to bid low and get those cargo vans moving again!! This new shift in bidding can't be good. Feel free to attack (insert eo screen name here) whenever you get done reading this post!
There must be a major paradigm shift taking place that is bound to set the stage for permanently lowered rates in the future. Look folks, you can jump on me like others have and claim that companies who do not drop their rates will price themselves out of business; but that argument it a logical fallacy. The only thing that is going to happen with regards to freight prices dropping "even with higher charging expedite compenies" is a new and potentially dangerous future precedent of lower freight rates across the board from NLM all the way to government loads and pharmaceuticals.
What? Do you really think that customers are going to pay higher rates once the economy gets back on track after growing a custom to the bidding wars? I was very upset when I saw posted on a broker board "i'm not going to name by name which one it was" that said something very sobering in reference to a cargo van load that was being brokered on the site. It read; happy new years and remember to bid low and get those cargo vans moving again!! This new shift in bidding can't be good. Feel free to attack (insert eo screen name here) whenever you get done reading this post!
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RLENT
Veteran Expediter
I dunno about permanently lowered rates .... but as long as there is excess capacity in terms of too many trucks chasing too little freight, there will be downward pressure on freight rates - that's just the nature of the free market - supply and demand. It's almost an immutable law of economics .... barring some other external factor that would influence it.
I rather doubt that many here want to volunteer to stay out of service to reduce capacity so that rates might come up .....
I'm not going to jump on you - but I would like to hear your explanation as to how the expediting industry is not governed by the laws of supply and demand.
Companies have fixed expenses that they must meet .... these expenses aren't going to go away just because business slows down .....
A carrier can start any given week with high ideals about how we're not going to book "any cheap freight" ..... but probably along about Wednesday or Thursday - when you haven't booked a single load - that viewpoint might be subject to change - especially when you are faced with the prospect of meeting Friday's payroll - and you have leased o/o's calling into Dispatch complaining/whining/screaming about "Why aren't you guys getting me moving ?"
I ran into a couple of TriState guys down in Birmingham, AL about a month ago .... the one had been sitting for 4 or 5 days IIRC .... In fact, I just got an email from him yesterday and he said it was "very slow - only two loads, 1150 miles so far this year" ...... I imagine he might be in favor of his company being a little more competitive if it meant he was going to be running .... rather than just sitting in a truckstop for a week, 800 or 900 miles from home.
Generally speaking, you're probably right - at least for the immediate, forseeable future.
Sure - the bidding process is a double-edge sword - when times are lean, business is slow, and there is excess capacity, everyone is tripping over one another trying to bid and win loads ..... freight rates go down.
But when times are good and everyone is busy, that bid gets put up on a bid board .... and maybe doesn't get but one bid .... or maybe even none ..... depending on the circumstances of the freight and the parties involved, that could be the point where desperation sets in .... and the sky's the limit.
But for now, pretty much figure that as long as the economy is in the tank, everyone is going to be fighting over what loads are available .... and add to that those people who are in charge of finance (the bean counters) at companies are going to be pushing to cut costs wherever they can - you and me end up being part of that equation, like or not.
In your comments above, you are touching on what I see as part of the problem with this industry - brokers.
To some extent, and in some instances, brokers are like banks - they are parasitic - they take a cut and provide very little added-value. It's not so much that there is always too little total money in a load to move it - but in many cases much of that money may be going to someone who does very, very little for the compensation they are receiving.
Free market economics, the laws of supply and demand, generally love efficiency .... and abhors inefficiency. Brokers are inefficient - they add additional cost into the equation, while providing very little value. As any market matures, the tendency is that inefficiencies are weeded out ...... expediting is a relatively young industry ...... things are gonna continue to change.
Sad fact is, many (both individuals and companies) probably won't be able make it to see good times return.
What would really be ironic, considering the political views of some on this site, is if some degree of salvation came to this industry from external factors - such as government intervention or regulation - as consequence of who is currently holding the reins of power politically.
Mind you, I don't necessarily expect that to happen - nor would I necessarily be in favor of it - it's just that it would be pretty funny if it did .....
It's merely a reflection of the state of the marketplace and the economy at the moment - and yeah - it ain't good.
I can't imagine who you might be referring to ......
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then on the other hand, just entertain the idea that the only one seeing a rate drop is the o/o. it is plausable carriers are keeping their rates the same and cutting ours to make up for lost profit from the decrease in freight volume. just another possibility, but definetly a angle to ponder.
Aww, I knew I would be attacked!!! Thanks for not lunging at my juggular vein, I appreciate that. You are right about supply side economics as far as the number of trucks that are on the road. Activeaero actually bragged about how the average bid price per load on their board had dropped by 30% last year due to a sluggish economy and also due to an increasing number if general freight carriers getting into the expedited game.
They even said that some non-expedite carriers would get the expedited loads because of the cheap prices they were giving the customer. Ever see a flatbed or heavy haul truck with one or two automotive tubs or baskets on the back ot if? Well that there is an Activeaero or NLM load that has miles and time on it that has been bid up for 35 to 55 cents a mile so that the trucker can pay his fuel. Don't think it is happening, think again people; cheap is king to these shipping clerks. It's the old ebay and u-ship attitude. People want what you are selling for free and they still want free shipping on a free item. I guess this is the new era of trucking.
They even said that some non-expedite carriers would get the expedited loads because of the cheap prices they were giving the customer. Ever see a flatbed or heavy haul truck with one or two automotive tubs or baskets on the back ot if? Well that there is an Activeaero or NLM load that has miles and time on it that has been bid up for 35 to 55 cents a mile so that the trucker can pay his fuel. Don't think it is happening, think again people; cheap is king to these shipping clerks. It's the old ebay and u-ship attitude. People want what you are selling for free and they still want free shipping on a free item. I guess this is the new era of trucking.
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You could be right on that theory; but it is not always the case. I cite Larado Texas in for instance. I was in Laredo one day last year and cargo van freight was being bid up at 35 and 55 cents per mile and being combined on straight trucks. I know NLM has rules about double dipping, but if they can get the freight hauled for cheap and it still makes it to the consignee on time, they will turn a blind eye to double and triple dipping. That is ruining it for us cargo van people (well mostly in the instance when freight has extra time on it) as they will still put hot freight on a cargo van in order to meet tighter deadlines. But skids were being eaten up by the borg all day until finally one skid came across that had to be delivered darn near straight through. So I lucked out eventually.
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RLENT
Veteran Expediter
It's entirely possible.
Indeed ..... and I'd bet that it is a thought that many O/O's (myself included) consider, possibly repeatedly, on a daily basis.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Well I didn't figure that I was attacking you - just trying to engage in a reasoned discussion of the situation.
Please understand - I am not trying to minimize the concerns you raised in your post - they are real and they are valid. It's just that, as you clearly understand, other factors come in play. As always, there are factors that one has immediate control over, and others that one doesn't.
Cheap is king everywhere in the good ol' US of A ...... one only has to look at the success of Walmart and others as glaring evidence of that.
Rarely is anything truly free - someone always bears the cost - it's largely a question of to what extent you or I want it to be me or thee ponying up.
Or the new era of expedite .... I dunno I haven't been around all that long in this industry .... but from what I can gather from reading here, in it's infancy, it was pretty easy to make a buck and do well in expediting ..... that has changed over time to where it has become much more difficult ...... this is not a situation that is confined to this industry alone.
nightcreacher
Veteran Expediter
usually when you see a flat bed with automotive racks,the racks are usually empty.There are some loads that are on racks that arent automotive.
nightcreacher
Veteran Expediter
Let me tell you of a short story and cheap automotive loads.Back in 1985 ,Roberts Express was doing 12 to 20 loads a day out of Saginaw Steering Gear,Decatur Al.Loads had a 15% discount as any customer at that time that moved 5 loads a week or more had the same discount,and we didnt haul any loads for NLM,are loads were with out a broker as such.OK back to the story.On this one day,I loaded my usual load to Lordstown Oh. so i could get home,when I stopped at the truck stop exit six in TN.As I was calling in to get my advance on the load,a Ranger Driver was calling in his load information.The conversation ended up that he wasnt going to deliver straight through to the GM plant outside of St Louis Mo,for what he was gettting paid,and yes his load was NLM,as were most of the automotive loads were.
Its like anything else,these companies cant expect the best service for a cheaper rate.Ifyour getting paid less to haul it,the only way to make up for the loss of revenue is lower your expenses,and the speed you drive is the easiest way to save money.
Its like anything else,these companies cant expect the best service for a cheaper rate.Ifyour getting paid less to haul it,the only way to make up for the loss of revenue is lower your expenses,and the speed you drive is the easiest way to save money.
No rocket science here.
If they pitch a plan that changes from their flate rate to percentage, they are going to be lowering the pay to the truck.
If not, why bother?
65 percent of the line haul means nothing. It would be more of, 65 percent of what?
Lot of good points in the other posts.
It is getting much tougher on the smaller carriers because they can't provide coverage, so they must compete with price.
It is getting easier and easier to identify who the budget carriers are.
Many still work around it, but it usually requires double dipping to maintain a decent rate.
If they pitch a plan that changes from their flate rate to percentage, they are going to be lowering the pay to the truck.
If not, why bother?
65 percent of the line haul means nothing. It would be more of, 65 percent of what?
Lot of good points in the other posts.
It is getting much tougher on the smaller carriers because they can't provide coverage, so they must compete with price.
It is getting easier and easier to identify who the budget carriers are.
Many still work around it, but it usually requires double dipping to maintain a decent rate.
What size of truck?
That is confusing about the flat rate , but get 65% of linehaul on all other loads.. meaning.. what?
And how do you figure you'd need 2 or 3 bucks a mile loads in order to make the 65% more beneficial than the flat rate?
According to my calculations, if your carrier charges $1.85/LM and gives you 65%, you will will get $1.20/LM.
When does the percentage kick in instead of the flat rate?
moose
Veteran Expediter
RLent, your first post was right on the money. Supply and demand ARE the unwritten rule of law in a free market economy, period. It`s economics 101. It`s build a better mousetrap bullseye thinking. More people need to understand that, so they don`t get lost in a finger pointing contest, but take a closer look at what moves market forces. Maybe they need to study free market dynamics. It`s no mystery. A simplistic analogy in expediting would be this:
Let`s say you are in Dallas and price concious company X needs to move a load NOW. NOW being the key word. If you`re the only truck in Dallas, you`re going to get the load at your asking rate. If there are several trucks in Dallas, company X being price concious, will put the load out for the best price. The lowest bid to move the load will win the day. You as the O%O, want a fair rate to move the freight, so that you will make a profit, and you want to maximize your profit by getting the highest figure you can. The carrier you are leased to, also wants to do the same thing. The shipper, company X also wants to move the load at the lowest cost, for the same reason as you the O%O, and the carrier. Profit. If each entity in the foregoing scenario can find a way to trim costs, they make more PROFIT. Again, RLent is right, free market loves efficiency. So, if you want more loads, you have to operate at lower cost to compete in an economy where there are too many trucks and not enough loads. The leanest and meanest will survive when the dust clears, which is another free market tenet. Get used to it.
Let`s say you are in Dallas and price concious company X needs to move a load NOW. NOW being the key word. If you`re the only truck in Dallas, you`re going to get the load at your asking rate. If there are several trucks in Dallas, company X being price concious, will put the load out for the best price. The lowest bid to move the load will win the day. You as the O%O, want a fair rate to move the freight, so that you will make a profit, and you want to maximize your profit by getting the highest figure you can. The carrier you are leased to, also wants to do the same thing. The shipper, company X also wants to move the load at the lowest cost, for the same reason as you the O%O, and the carrier. Profit. If each entity in the foregoing scenario can find a way to trim costs, they make more PROFIT. Again, RLent is right, free market loves efficiency. So, if you want more loads, you have to operate at lower cost to compete in an economy where there are too many trucks and not enough loads. The leanest and meanest will survive when the dust clears, which is another free market tenet. Get used to it.
I'm in a D unit and i get paid 1.20 for all loaded miles ran. until the change comes into effect at that point the rate is going to be lowered to 1.05 for the customers they already have and 65% of the broker loads which if lets say they are paying 2 or 3 bucks a mile i get 65% of that but heres the thing how would i ever know what it pays unless they put that info over the QC not saying they will but they could say the load pays whatever and how would i know or for that matter anyone know.. so thus the question is the flat 1.20 better than the new change when and if it comes into effect
Probably better at the 1.20.
Why? Because if they didn't intend on paying less, they wouldn't have made the offer in the first place.
If it is a percentage, you are fine as long as you booked the load. If they booked it, then I would want the BOL for verification of charges.
If they can't provide that, then you can figure there is a reason why.
Remember,
"Businessman first, driver second"
Why? Because if they didn't intend on paying less, they wouldn't have made the offer in the first place.
If it is a percentage, you are fine as long as you booked the load. If they booked it, then I would want the BOL for verification of charges.
If they can't provide that, then you can figure there is a reason why.
Remember,
"Businessman first, driver second"
Here is the truth of it, and if you call your fleet coordinator (Don, Carl, or Mick) they will give you a 100% honest answer.
The rates for every carrier have been lowering since the economy hit it's major snag in November, since that time TS has tried to absorb the cost of the lower rates to keep from passing it onto their drivers. Also, during that time they were paying (so I'm told) anywhere to 90% of the customers charges to the drivers.
They are doing this for all of our survival. Am I happy about it? No. But there is a lot not to be happy about in this economy. Even their staff has been cut back to help the company get through this rough economic period, so everyone gets affected by this.
This is a cut throat business, everyone knows this, and we are now competing with LTL companies who are trying to supplement THEIR lost freight by taking expedite loads for their rates. Tri State isn't doing this to make money hand over fist, they are doing it for long term survival. I understand that. Sure, there will be some of us that cannot afford to weather the cuts, but hopefully this will help TS in getting more freight that is being taken by the other smaller carriers.
If you have questions, call your recruiter or coordinator. They'll answer your questions.
DaveKC, they have told me that all of us are welcome to come in and look at their invoices to their customers. There is not some grand conspiracy going on here.
The rates for every carrier have been lowering since the economy hit it's major snag in November, since that time TS has tried to absorb the cost of the lower rates to keep from passing it onto their drivers. Also, during that time they were paying (so I'm told) anywhere to 90% of the customers charges to the drivers.
They are doing this for all of our survival. Am I happy about it? No. But there is a lot not to be happy about in this economy. Even their staff has been cut back to help the company get through this rough economic period, so everyone gets affected by this.
This is a cut throat business, everyone knows this, and we are now competing with LTL companies who are trying to supplement THEIR lost freight by taking expedite loads for their rates. Tri State isn't doing this to make money hand over fist, they are doing it for long term survival. I understand that. Sure, there will be some of us that cannot afford to weather the cuts, but hopefully this will help TS in getting more freight that is being taken by the other smaller carriers.
If you have questions, call your recruiter or coordinator. They'll answer your questions.
DaveKC, they have told me that all of us are welcome to come in and look at their invoices to their customers. There is not some grand conspiracy going on here.
No grand conspiracy at all.
If they are willing to show your billing as they should, then that is good. That is suppose to be how it is done.
I go with the thoughts of "trust, but verify".
As for everyone dropping their rates, I am not seeing that.
Or at least, not yet.
If they are willing to show your billing as they should, then that is good. That is suppose to be how it is done.
I go with the thoughts of "trust, but verify".
As for everyone dropping their rates, I am not seeing that.
Or at least, not yet.
I was talking to Panther drivers at the yard last week that were saying that Panther is doing just that. They also had the same complaint about lack of freight.
That's not Panther's fault. They're also doing what they need to do. If you haven't been effected yet, I'm very happy for you and hope that it continues. I hope that for everyone.
That's not Panther's fault. They're also doing what they need to do. If you haven't been effected yet, I'm very happy for you and hope that it continues. I hope that for everyone.