Optional Bible class at Michigan elementary school canceled after complaints

LDB

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They need to be told the program stands and to go pound sand. Worthless bums.
 
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Turtle

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The only possible conflict I can see is if the school bus transporting the kids is paid by the school district using tax payer/state funds.
That is what's happening, so there is that. But, also, "...children are released from school classes during school hours to attend religious instruction at a nearby location," a flyer for the class notes. That's state sponsored and state promoted. Thaaaaat's a no-no.

Just because, as one parent said, "It's not on school property. Parents have to sign their kids. It's completely optional," doesn't mean it escapes school sponsorship and promotion. In high school I had a gym class where we could opt out of gym and could go bowling every day, at a bowling alley 2.5 miles away. It wasn't on school property. Parents has to sign their kids, and it was completely optional.

There is no reason for a school to be doing this, once a month, during school hours. Parents could just as easily take their kids there, once a month, after school, on Saturday.

Or hey, here's a novel thought, do it every Sunday morning. You could call it, oh, I dunno, something like... Sunday School.

I don't have the least little problem with prayer in school. Start the day with a prayer, doesn't harm anyone. Those who want to listen to the prayer and/or even pray along can do so, those who don't want to, can think about something else. If you're religious or your parents want to raise you to be religious, you might get something out of it. If you're not religious, it might teach you how to meditate and focus your thoughts.

But school sponsored or assisted religious dogma instruction, during the all-important pre-teen indoctrination years? Newp.
 
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Ragman

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The only possible conflict I can see is if the school bus transporting the kids is paid by the school district using tax payer/state funds.
That is what's happening, so there is that. But, also, "...children are released from school classes during school hours to attend religious instruction at a nearby location," a flyer for the class notes. That's state sponsored and state promoted. Thaaaaat's a no-no.

Just because, as one parent said, "It's not on school property. Parents have to sign their kids. It's completely optional," doesn't mean it escapes school sponsorship and promotion. In high school I had a gym class where we could opt out of gym and could go bowling every day, at a bowling alley 2.5 miles away. It wasn't on school property. Parents has to sign their kids, and it was completely optional.

There is no reason for a school to be doing this, once a month, during school hours. Parents could just as easily take their kids there, once a month, after school, on Saturday.

Or hey, here's a novel thought, do it every Sunday morning. You could call it, oh, I dunno, something like... Sunday School.

I don't have the least little problem with prayer in school. Start the day with a prayer, doesn't harm anyone. Those who want to listen to the prayer and/or even pray along can do so, those who don't want to, can think about something else. If you're religious or your parents want to raise you to be religious, you might get something out of it. If you're not religious, it might teach you how to meditate and focus your thoughts.

But school sponsored or assisted religious dogma instruction, during the all-important pre-teen indoctrination years? Newp.
Better be careful.... you might be confused as a lefty.
 
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Turtle

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Better be careful.... you might be confused as a lefty.
Won't be the first time. People have incorrectly confused me for all kinds of things.

Just because I'm not pro religion doesn't mean I'm anti religion. It's a free country, you can believe what you want, particularly as an adult. I'm not nearly arrogant enough to proclaim there is no God, and certainly not with the same hubris that others can proclaim there is. There is a time and a place for everything. Public schools are not the place to be teaching students that there is no God, anymore than it is the place to be teaching them that there is.

Ever heard of a preacher giving a Sunday sermon on the Higgs boson? A sermon on Euclidean geometry? How about one on the Special Theory of Relativity? No, of course not. Why? Because it doesn't belong in church.
 

RoadTime

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You would think 1 hr a month during lunch would not cause a ruckus, but this is the times we live in. Upon further review...

-Program was changed to off site, with family and church providing transportation. +

-State allows for it ++

-School letting parents know the program exist..Apparently a problem. So the state allows for the program, but you can't tell anyone. Will be interesting how this turns out.

1 hr a month hardly seems even forth a fight on either side. As Turtle said, there are plenty of off school time opportunities available, and more frequently available for those that want it.

Secular Group Forces Michigan School District to End Students' Off Campus Bible Study

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Turtle

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Upon further review...

-Program was changed to off site, with family and church providing transportation. +

-State allows for it ++
The concept of "released time" dates back to the very early 1900s. It has always focused on elementary school-aged children, because people have known for generations that it's right around the 4th grade age bracket or soon thereafter when social consciousness begins to emerge. It's that 9-11 years old age range when kids begin to both listen to and engage in conversation about sociopolitical issues that had mostly been background noise in previous years.

The early concepts were that elementary schools would be closed one day a week (in addition to Sunday, of course) so that parents could have their children receive religious instruction outside the school premises. The first to do that was, famously, Dr. William Albert Wirt, in Gary, Indiana in 1914, where he enveloped Released Time into what was called the Gary Plan. The Gary Plan is a platoon system, or a work-study-play system that many people here over 50 will be familiar with (some students are learning the Three Rs while others are leaning sewing and wood shop).

Released Time became fairly popular throughout the country, and reached its peak enrollment totals in 1947, when 2 million students were enrolled in some 2,200 communities. Today there are about 1000 Released Time programs with about 250,000 students participating. There are 12 states with legislation that allows Released Time programs. Utah takes that one step further and legislatively requires it of the public schools unless there is a waiver in place.

But there was a famous Supreme Court case (well, famous if you're familiar with Released Time, and separation of church and state generally), McCollum v. Board of Education in 1948 where the court ruled that the (specifically Champaign, IL) program was unconstitutional since it used the state's compulsory education system to aid in the teaching of religious doctrine and tax-supported school buildings were being used. The fact that students were being coerced by the school into enrolling in the program didn't help. It's no coincidence that the articles listed in this thread above have parents and supporters of Released Time making special note that the program 'is not on school property, public funds are not used, parents have to sign their kids, and it's completely optional,' because not being "completely optional" is what got Champaign in trouble.

The Court voted 8-1 on that one. After that ruling Release Time programs around the country took a significant hit, as most were taking place on school property.

The 1952 case of Zorach v. Clauson challenged a New York State law which did basically what the Michigan law does, and ruled 6-3 in favor of the law. The NY law "involves neither religious instruction in public schools nor the expenditure of public funds." Justice William O. Douglas wrote that a public school "may not coerce anyone to attend church, to observe a religious holiday, or to take religious instruction. But it can close its doors or suspend its operations as to those who want to repair to their religious sanctuary for worship or instruction. No more than that is undertaken here."

The Fremont program was moved off school property 2 years ago when they got called on it for having the religious instruction in the physical classrooms of the school. It was incredibly stupid on the part of Fremont to ever have a Released Time program take place on school property in the first place, since the McCollum v. Board of Education ruling should be burned into the brain of anyone having anything to do with Released Time. But then to get called on it, and move it off campus, but continue promoting and actively encouraging it is beyond stupid. You can let parents know that a Released Time program is available for those who want to take advantage of it to, as the court put it, "repair to their religious sanctuary for worship or instruction," but you can't as a public institution go and promote a specific program at a specific church.

The Pennsylvania School Code requires all Pennsylvania public schools to accommodate a parent's request for Release Time Education by excusing their child from school to receive religious instruction outside of the school. But the school only accommodates the parent's request, and doesn't promote any particular program. The New York City public school system participates in Release Time, with the Jewish Release Time of Greater New York being a big program there. But the school only accommodates those who want to be excused from school for the program, and doesn't actively or specifically promote the Jewish or any of the other various programs. Outside of Utah, it's South Carolina where Released Time programs are the most prevalent.

In Kentucky, where I live, state law states "The Board of Education of each school district may authorize a complete survey of all the public school children in order to determine which children desire moral instruction. The Boards of Education,"shall allow" the release of students for "at least one hour, one day a week" to attend moral instruction in accordance with their religious faith." (This appears to only put a minimum on the amount of time that must allow, but the Attorney General has said that schools may release students for no longer than this amount of time.) It also says that, "All students who receive permission and attend religious instruction each week will be credited with the time spent as if they had actually been in attendance at public school. Such moral instruction may only be given without expense to any Board of Education."

If a school (prompted mostly by the parents of the kids, who should be in charge of how their kids are educated) wants to have a Released Time program once a month, or once a week, or even once a day, I don't care. But the school itself can't be the one promoting it.
 
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davekc

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No need to complicate the simple. This is why they have private schools. They can pray all day and it should be ok. Public schools shouldn't have religion at all unless you are doing a silent moment or something. Just my opinion.
 

Moot

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They need to be told the program stands and to go pound sand. Worthless bums.
What if the Michigan school district adds optional Koran study classes, Torah classes, WICCA study, etc?
 
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LDB

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If they are zero cost and totally voluntary they should be available if anyone chooses to electively select them. They should not be part of the curriculum which is more and more common.
 
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davekc

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always a grey area because someone at some point will say one is getting promoted over another. Good for lawyers but not really anyone else. That is why I would rather private schools tackle that and leave public blank.
 
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