Asian Carp

**greg334** · 12-09-2009, 10:53 AM

Look here is the thing, I agree that we lost a lot of the land that should be left alone. I also agree with the problems we have with water fowl not having anywhere to go, I would rather have goose sh*t on my lawn than most people I have as neighbors.

Take a drive up to Macomb, Mt Clemens area along M59 and see what is there. When I was going up there to work in 1980, there was an open country, hunting and farm markets all over the place.

Imagine that there were farms and farms and more open land with some residential areas and a good balance.

The developers push and push to make money, they built on everything to make a buck and then there was flooding up that way and the people complained about it but never understood that there was a purpose for those farms, to provide a place for water to go. My sister lives up in that area, her home was built in 1935 and she was spared the big flooding and until I showed her how the system worked, she was one of those who complained that the state needed to address the problems.

I hate development of land that could be used for farming with all this open lawn we have in Detroit and the tri-county area - Pontiac comes to mind.

**layoutshooter** · 12-09-2009, 11:11 AM

One of the problems is that the DNR is NOT a landowner advocate. Their mandate is habitat protection, restoration and wildlife management. Those mandates OFTEN conflict with the rights of private land ownership. That make it VERY difficult to fix the problems since BOTH side are RIGHT!!

I think the problem is mainly one of lack of education. Bioligists in general don't speak well with people. They, and the State are NOT good at communicating the problems we are facing.

When given the chance to sit down one on one with them they are able to make it clear. They don't seem to be able to do it on a mass scale.

Landowners need to accept some of the responsibility for this as well. Most demand the RIGHTS of private ownership but few today are willing to accept the REPONSIBILITY of stewartship. We share this planet with other species. It is a black eye on mankind when we just destroy any chance of their survival and SOMEDAY, if this continues, we WILL do enough damage to kill ourselves off.

When I was younger there were quail all over S.E. Michigan and now they are all but gone. So is the cottontail rabbit. Small game in general is being wiped out by poor farming practices and un-controlled developement.

Waterfowl, except for geese, are being hurt more than most. Wetlands, including the "marginal and seasonal" wetlands where MOST of the breeding occurs are being drained in Michigan at an alarming rate.

If we are not careful we will join Ohio and California in the dubious position of having lost 98% of our wetlands. Not something to be proud of.

State wide we have lost close to 50% and in S.E. Michigan there is less than 1% remaining. There is about 7000 acres under State control that is protected but in bad condition. The rest is in the hands of private land owners and they are draining away what is left quickly. Soon it will be gone.

I don't know how to fix this but something has to happen. It is a very sad legacy we are leaving behind.

**oncedrove** · 12-21-2009, 06:49 PM

Cox is in the fight now.

Cox takes Asian carp suit to Supreme Court | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

**layoutshooter** · 12-21-2009, 07:05 PM

It is about time, hope he wins this one. I wonder why Canada and the rest of the Great Lakes States are not involved? They all have as much to lose as Michigan does.

**Jack_Berry** · 12-21-2009, 09:24 PM

they aren't involved because it is still "illinois' problem".

"let us wait and poin the fingers of blame at the army corps of engineers who let them into lake michigan".
nothing is real until it is in your backyard.

Comprehensive study of the Chicago waterway system to define where and how many carp are in these waters, and to eradicate them;

this is simple....put a boat in the water and count the flying fish. could be fun over this holiday to see if the fish make it back into the water. bring your goalie gear.

**layoutshooter** · 12-22-2009, 05:47 AM

There have been some boater injured when these fish hit them as when they jump at the boats. Goalie gear is a good idea!

**Dabus1952** · 12-22-2009, 11:36 PM

The comment about Chicago and the nasty dirty canals. The only place that, could have been was along side of Interstate 55.on the south side of Chicago .To be frank with you that canal is so polluted that the carp wouldnt survive there. The carp are coming up the Chicago river.Yes they were found near the lake michigan inlet. Mayor Daley is very aware of the Problem and trying to prevent them from entering lake michigan.They have posioned a 6 mile strech of the river, set up some trapping device.I think it will be controled Chicago has a lot riding on this as well.The Fishermen on charter boats, the tour boats in downtown.The harbors this all comes down to big money. For all of the Great Lake states,Therefore it is in there best interst to kill the invasion before it gets out of hand.The media can over play a story when things are slow. Or maybe its the Al Gore factor Global warming .

**layoutshooter** · 12-23-2009, 08:45 AM

They should have never made it up as far as they have. They were aware of the problem 15 years ago and did little over that time to stop this. There was an attempt made during the Bush administration but the bill was vetoed, mainly due to a zillion add on amendments that had nothing to due with this problem. As per normal they took a solution to a real problem and turned it into a pork barrel. The mayor of Chicago can do little except legal noise, it will take action at the Federal level. The Feds control the locks that need to be closed. The electric barriers they have are not foolproof.

**greg334** · 12-23-2009, 09:34 AM

Hate to say this but it seems that this is an issue that is not important to a lot of people and is no where near the crisis that it is made out to be like the massive amount of people dying every day because their insurance company cut them off after they found out that they lied about that cold they had 20 years ago and forgot to tell them they had to go to the doctor's office twice in one week.

There are 16 senators and there are 125 representatives all from Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York - a total of 141 people in the federal government who don't seem to be concerned about this issue enough to demand the canals to be closed. What happened to the EPA's involvement or the Obama's administration telling the Corp of Engineers to shut down the canal?

Let's not forget Canada and their anal approach to natural resources (which is the right way to look at this issue), I haven't heard a peep out of them about this issue but again I am looking at the Detroit papers and they still think Canada is an extension of the US.

Instead of worrying about health care reform and New Orleans not getting enough money to rebuild, if this was a real crisis, then congress should act with some determination to solve a real problem.

The sportsmen/women and the people who derive their living from the lakes should be the ones telling congress, or better yet demanding congress to act on this issue. They will of course forget about this issue when it comes time to vote and look forward to the new health care plans they will have to get.

They, the sportsmen/women, the commercial fisherman/women will forget about the nice tasting carp being a problem when they are pulling that level for Democrat party here in the state. Because almost all the people who put Jenny in office don't fish and think shrimp are caught without heads and Fish Sticks are bred that way, the public in general just don't care enough to make a stick about some fish.

I don't see anything really happening that will help the issue and Cox's move as silly as it seems does make some sense - sue the fish.

By the way, the Bush adminstration could have done a lot, there is something called an executive order that would have forced the corp of engineers, the EPA and even shifted funding away from silly things like rebuilding New Orleans or the war on terror. It didn't have to be placed in a bill because the last time I checked, he has control over the canals, more so than does congress.

**layoutshooter** · 12-23-2009, 09:47 AM

I guess that if Michigan loses another industry it just won't hunt anyone. What is another 3 billion dollar lose to the State, not to mention the jobs loses, which will be high.

I am not an eco-nut. I don't fall for every sob story out there. There is good, sound science to back this up. It will cause serious damage to the Lakes, that everyone who lives on them and gets their water from them will pay for. If they get established there will be a drastic decline in water quality. These carp, as all carp, eat the very vegetation needed to filter our water. Only these carp are much bigger. In their native waters, which are much like the Great Lakes, they can reach up to 300lbs.

It is not just a problem for sportsmen and commercial fisherman and the fix is not expensive. There is no need for this to happen.

I did not mean to give Bush a pass, he could have done more. It was more of a slap in the face of Congress and how they load up on the pork instead of dealing with a single issue.

Greg, you might not see how this is going to affect you now, and you and I might not live long enough to see the damage they will cause on the Lakes, but our grandchildren will. Mankind can cause great damage to our ecosystems. When the real science is there, the cost is low and the benefit high, why is it a problem to just fix it? Not everyone who looks at these problems are eco-wackos, some of them really know things.

**greg334** · 12-23-2009, 12:11 PM

Layout,
I do see how it will effect me, but I don't buy into the fear mongering that has been used on every issue that has been environmentally centered.

There is a positive and a negative side to this, but to me there are two simple solutions, one is to close the canal completely and the other is to help build a small cottage industry to fish and market them. Both of those involve priorities and these priorities on this issue seem not as important to the masses then say health care or climate change. Our congress, which represents us, falls for a pseudo-science of global warming but fails to consider the impact on what one type of fish will do to millions of people? I would say yes. You and I both know that no one wants to confront Levin or Stabenow on this issue while more important things are on the forefront, and because they do actually care a lot for the state, they will get reelected and reelected based on the work they have done for the state - which doesn't include jobs or the negative impact that this fish will have on all of us. Instead Levin for example has pushed through an amendment to solve the Great Washington District of Columbia Taxi Cab Crisis because he claims he lives there - and the people who elected him fall for it as something he has done right.

If there was a time for everyone directly effected by this fish to come together and actually send a message to congress and Obama it is now but they won't - will they? Want to join me in helping this out?

The other possible solution is to use the billions of dollars that we give to universities and other institutions of higher learning to demand they find a solution to decrease, if not kill off the population of that fish without effecting others - instead of studying the mating habits of the college freshman.

If you want to believe that we can destroy our ecosystem, then man made global warming is also a fact but the truth is we can only do so much damage and destroy only so much because nature seems to have a way to equalize things out when left alone. Much like the idea that we must restore specific fish to specific rivers and streams, it seems a little futile when it doesn't matter what fish live in the river.

Or better yet when an area is devastated by a natural disaster, like Mt St Helens erupting, the eco system came back pretty well and after these non-professional people who were not the biologist and the botanist said to the public "leave it all alone and watch what happens" the biologists and the botanist were screaming that we must do something to save the area, save the wild life and to save man. But to their surprise there was life after the massive flow of lava killed everything in its path as the people said there would be.

I agree we must preserve things, but not for our children, that is too selfish. We must do it because it is the right thing to do. We must first follow the need to preserve and protect our ability to decide what's right for things we own, not be told to do it.

Do you know if there is a licensing requirement by the Illinois for this fish to fish them?

By the way when I was over that way, I had some of it - if it is prepared right, it's pretty good eats.

**layoutshooter** · 12-23-2009, 12:24 PM

You will be affected by the lose of tax revenue to the State when the sport fishing industry dies off. You will be affected when the cost of cleaning our drinking water increases as this new carp in the lakes kills of vegetation that is not able to withstand this new invasive species.

I do not panic over every thing that comes down the pike. The so-called science on global warming is a joke. This is not. I know too many of those involved in this, they are good people, normal people who do this for a living. They have no political axe to grind. The solution to this will not alter our lifestyle or put anyone out of work. It will not restrict your or my freedoms.

You are correct, we need to do it because it is the right thing to do. I only mentioned kids and grandkids because that is the time frame when the worst of the problem will start to show.

As to our polititicians ever doing what is right, forget it. They are only worried about votes. The bulk of the votes come from the cities. Generally speaking city people care nothing about anything that does not affect them today. They don't understand or care anything that goes on outside the city limits. So our useless elected bums will do nothing.

The worst part of it is that this would have not cost the general tax payer one red cent. It was slated to be paid for with Pittman/Robinson and the other similar tax on fishing tackle money. It would not affected the deficit in any way and would have provided real work or real people. Again, only the sportsman covering the cost of true conservation work. Non-sportsmen do not even come close to paying their fair share of the cost of real conservation work.

**oncedrove** · 12-24-2009, 10:31 PM

Ohio is getting in on the fight.

Ohio asks Supreme Court to study Asian carp threat

COLUMBUS, Ohio — Ohio has asked the U.S. Supreme Court to review steps taken to stop Asian carp from invading the Great Lakes.

Ohio Attorney General Richard Cordray asked the court Wednesday to examine measures taken by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the state of Illinois to stop the spread of the fish.

Cordray asked the court to reopen an earlier case examining the legality of several man-made canals and waterways connecting Lake Michigan with the Illinois and Mississippi Rivers.

Cordray says the carp present a substantial threat to the Great Lakes because they could crowd out native fish species and impair area fisheries.

Michigan on Monday asked the high court to sever the century-old connection between the Great Lakes and the Mississippi River system to prevent the carp from invading the lakes.

Ohio asks Supreme Court to study Asian carp threat | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

**layoutshooter** · 12-25-2009, 09:55 AM

Thank you OHIO!!! Let's keep up the pressure. There is no natural waterway connection between the Great Lakes and the Mississippi River. That mistake needs to be corrected.

**skyraider** · 12-25-2009, 11:35 AM

Isn't the influence of mankind upon nature somewhat detrimental to nature,,just a thought..PS Your dealing with greed and so on and so on...IN 1966 Pensacola fl, at Gulf Breeze had a beautiful piece of land on the sound side. It is now covered with 3 and 4 story so called beach houses and now u feel like ur riding thru a tunnel just to get to the beaches and park. I can only imagine Chicago's mess, I don't like it there and only pass thru it when I have a load...............