Espar D2 Cargo Van

[dhalltoyo]

1. In an extended wheelbase GM or Ford van
A. Without a bulkhead
B. Fully insulated roof and side walls with floor covering

Question: Will the D2 keep the van above 68 degrees if the outside temp is 32 degrees or higher?

1. In an extended wheelbase GM or Ford van
A. With no other accessories running and the engine off

Question: Will the Heavy Duty GM battery handle the Espar D2 energy demand during an 8 hour rest period?

[Marty]

I can only speak for the D4 model. I have a Sprinter and it keeps my van warm at below zero temperatures.
You should get a lot more than 8 hours out of your battery just using the Espar.
Don't you have the Duramax engine? Doesn't that come with two batteries?

[dhalltoyo]

Good memory Marty.

Actually I sold the 2006 with the Duramax.

Got a 2008 coming in with the 6.0L. One battery in the 6.0L.

I did order the Heavy Duty Battery and Alternator on the 2008.

I appreciate your reply.

Hopefully a D2 owner will reply too.

[Turtle]

If the van is insulated well, the D2 should be fine. It'll have to work harder, but it will, absolutely, keep you toasty. The D2 will work in this Sprinter, too, but I went with the D4 for several reasons.

The way the Airtronic works is, it'll go through its warm up, then fire up in BOOST mode for a few minutes (depending) to get things quickly heated up in there. Then, depending on the temperature of the air intake, it will cycle down through the HIGH, MEDIUM and LOW settings, and go up and down through those as needed to keep a relatively constant temperature. If the van is well insulated, the D4 will spend the vast majority of its time cycling between LOW and MEDIUM, while the D2 will cycle mostly between MEDIUM and HIGH. In sub-zeros, either will probably be in the HIGH range more than not.

In BOOST mode, the D2 outputs 7,500 BTU. The D4 outputs 13,650 BTU, nearly twice as much. While the D4 might be in BOOST mode for 3 or 4 minutes, the D2 is likely to have to remain there for 10-20 minutes before reaching the same cabin temperature.

BTU Heat Output
BOOST
D2 - 7,500 BTU
D4 - 13,650 BTU

In HIGH mode:
D2 - 6,150 BTU
D4 - 10,200 BTU

MEDIUM mode:
D2 - 4,100 BTU
D4 - 6,800 BTU

LOW mode:
D2 - 2,900 BTU
D4 - 3,400 BTU


Battery Power, AMPS drawn from the battery...
It's generally a good idea to use a separate, auxiliary battery for the Espar heater (and it doesn't have to be anything expensive or fancy, either), and anything else extra you may want to add later (like lights or an inverter). If it's really cold and you're stuck someplace for a day or more, all thw while running the heater, you really want the starter battery to be as fully charged as practical, so running the heater off an aux battery is a good idea. Be that as it may, the AMP draw off the battery is minimal, although relentless, and a 1 or 2 amp relentless draw can run a starter battery down over night, especially in sub-freezing temperatures. The amps drawn from the battery is largely to power the air intake and heat exhaust fans, and the electric start.


AMP Draw
START
D2 - 8.3 amps
D4 - 8.3 amps

BOOST
D2 - 2.8 amps
D4 - 3.3 amps

HIGH
D2 - 1.9 amps
D4 - 2.0 amps

MEDIUM
D2 - 1.0 amps
D4 - 1.1 amps

LOW
D2 - 0.7 amps
D4 - 0.6 amps

So, you can see the electrical requirements are, essentially, the same for both units. Of course, the D4 will spend most of its time cycling between LOW and MEDIUM (if very well insulated, mostly in the LOW range), and the D2 is likely to spend most of its time cycling between MEDIUM and HIGH (MEDIUM if very well insulated), so in that respect the D2 actually requires a little more juice over the course of a cold 8 hour night.


AIR FLOW, air intake, heated air output, in Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM)

BOOST
D2 - 48 cfm
D4 - 85 cfm

HIGH
D2 - 40 cfm
D4 - 69 cfm

MEDIUM
D2 - 27 cfm
D4 - 50 cfm

LOW
D2 - 19 cfm
D4 - 30 cfm

Weeeeel, that's not even close. :) The D4 has a larger air intake and heat output hose, so considerably more air can be moved throughout the space with the same amount of amps of battery power. Which also means more BTU's can be moved in less time, more efficiently. On the surface, it's easy to think of air flow as nothing more than fan speed, but this is an important factor as it ties in directly with fuel consumption below. Less air flow means the heater need to manufacture more BTU's for longer periods of time, which affects fuel consumption, amps required, and at which level (HIGH, MEDIUM, LOW) the unit spends most of its time.


FUEL CONSUMPTION, Gallons per hour
BOOST
D2 - .07
D4 - .13

HIGH
D2 - .06
D4 - .10

MEDIUM
D2 - .04
D4 - .07

LOW
D2 - .03
D4 - .03

The D4 clearly uses more fuel at a given heat level, but because of the increased airflow and BTU output, the D4 spends much less time at the high levels, thereby using less fuel and amps over the long run. In other words, the D2 will do what you want, but it'll have to work harder to do it.

In my Sprinter, at temperatures between 0-20F, I find that it uses just about 1 gallon per 15 hours, or .06-.07 gallons per hour on the average. And I'll keep it warm enough in here to sleep in my birthday suit, often sleeping on top of the covers rather than under them. (If I'm gonna live in this thing, I'm gonna be comfortable.) The temperature thermostat thingy (I think it's actually called a rheostat, although an actual thermostat option is available) doesn't have numbers on it, but if they did, mine would be set at about 3 out of 10, and if it were a D2 it would be set at about 5. The D2 will use about the same amount of fuel, maybe slightly more, being that it doesn't have the BTU output or airflow to keep up, so it will run at the higher levels (MEDIUM and HIGH) for more time.

That's a small difference, when it comes right down to it, fuel-wise, anyway. But when you factor in the fuel, the amps, how much harder the D2 needs to work to keep up with a D4 in the same installation, the relatively small price difference between the D2 and the D4, for my money, was a no brainer. At least in an installation without a sealed bulkhead, like you are talking about. In a truck sleeper or a van with a bulkhead where you'd be heating only half the space, the D2 would be the way to go.

Incidentally, with either unit, if less heat than the LOW setting is required, the until goes into Standby Mode, and only the fan is running in LOW mode. Both units also have a fan-only mode that you can use year-round for general air circulation, which comes in handy in conjunction with something like a Fan-Tastic fan vent.

So, to answer your question again, yes the D2 will do just fine, but it'll just be running a little harder most of the time, is all.

[Crazynuff]

>Good memory Marty.
>
>Actually I sold the 2006 with the Duramax.
>
>Got a 2008 coming in with the 6.0L. One battery in the 6.0L.
>
>I did order the Heavy Duty Battery and Alternator on the
>2008.
>
>I appreciate your reply.
>
>Hopefully a D2 owner will reply too.
A 2008 with the 6.0 . That's really interesting . Ford announced in May it would no longer accept orders for diesel vans but announced they are now available . I've heard they will be allowed to install the 6.0 without particulate filters to use up their stock of 6.0's International produced before January but held delvery on until ordered by a judge to release them . Once that supply is used up there will be no more E Series diesels . Anbody have any info on this ?

[dhalltoyo]

Thanks!

I have some reservations about the power drain.

I am considering the extra battery, but Espar wanted $700 to put in an isolater and battery. Seems kind of high to me.

Any ideas.

[greg334]

"I have some reservations about the power drain.

I am considering the extra battery, but Espar wanted $700 to put in an isolater and battery. Seems kind of high to me.

Any ideas. "

$700 to do something like that? NO way.

You can do it yourself without any difficulty.

I think that you have a dual 40amp upfitter tap in your van somewhere behind your drivers seat which is fused under the hood, you can use that for your power source and wire up an isolator and get a good deep cycle AGM battery for a third or even less.

Terry may know more about the specifics of the location of the tap, he has a new van.

[Turtle]

First, use a real battery isolator (Sure Power, Hellroaring, etc.), and not a simple solenoid switch. Not sure about currently, but Espar used to use a simple solenoid, so you may want to check with them on that. A real isolator is much, much better. A simple solenoid connects the starter and aux batteries when the key is turned on, and disconnects them when the key is off, thereby allowing you to drain the aux battery dry without affecting the starter battery. That's a good thing. But, the bad thing part comes into play when you turn the key and the drained or semi-drained aux battery is mated with the starter battery, and the starter battery will take a whollop of a hit as the aux battery tries to recharge itself using they starter battery as the power source.

A regular solenoid will work, and it'll work just fine if that's what you prefer, just keep in mind that every time you start the van the starter battery will be subjected to current stresses, both initially as well as during the time the aux battery is being recharged, that will shorten its lifespan.

The $700 for the battery and solenoid, which includes probably $100 for installation, is not a really that bad price for what you're getting, believe it or don't. It's not a great price, but it's not a bad price. They are almost certainly quoting you for a very good, very high end Discover Energy (www.discover-energy.com) deep cycle AGM battery, probably a single 12-volt model, but it might be for a couple of 6-volt models.

The deep cycle batteries that I'm going to install in here very soon will be the Discover AGM L16 batteries, 6 volts, 390 amp hours and 123 pounds each, and to get 12 volts they gotta be used in pairs, which means nearly 250 pounds for each set of 12-volt batteries. Whew! I'll use either 8 of 'em, if I go 100% battery, or 2-4 of them if I get a generator. Weight is the issue. Yours won't weight nearly that much, probably in the 65 pound range.

I'm not sure which model they quoted you for (maybe a 4D, or maybe a type 31 battery), but I'm sure it's the MSRP for the battery. The MSRP for the L16 that I'll be getting is a cool $580.15 each, which is just about what I was quoted from the folks in Romulus. But I've found a place where I can get them for $320.00.

These are serious batteries, cream of the crop, best of the best. A very close second is Concord Lifeline and Concord SunXtender batteries. If the Concord batteries are AGM version 1.0, the Discover Energy batteries are AGM version 1.1. Concord doesn't yet make an L16 sized battery, which is what I need.

Think carefully about how you will use the battery. If it's just for the heater, and you won't be using an inverter for anything, then a single el cheapo yellow top Everstart Maxx marine battery from Wal Mart is all you'll need. I think those are like $65.00 or something. They're 125 amp hours each (although it doesn't say that anywhere on the case, but trust me, they are), but do keep in mind that 125 amp hours from a Wally World battery isn't quite the same 125 amp hours that you're gonna get from a high end AGM deep cycle battery. The battery life in years of the cheap deep cycle won't be anywhere hear that of a high end battery. The Wal Mart battery is a hybrid starter/deep cycle, but it's deep cycle enough to handle an Espar heater. The heater has exactly the same kind of low-amp, yet relentless, draw a trolling motor puts on the battery, which is why that battery, or one similar to it, will work so well with the Espar, and why you don't need a high end Discover Energy battery for it.

If it's just for the heater, figure a relentless 2 amp draw from the Espar heater, which will mean 48 amps drawn over a 24 hour period (it's best to figure worst-case scenarios when it comes to batteries). A 50% DoD for the Wally World 125 amp hour battery would mean you don't ever want to drawn more than 62 amp hours from it before recharging. So a single battery for something that draws just 48 amp hours will be plenty. If you're stuck someplace for, say, 3 days over a weekend, then you'll want to fire up the van every 24 hours to let the alternator recharge the batteries. If you have a 150 amp alternator, figure 60-80 amps will be used for the van itself (again, worst case) then 2 hours should be enough to recharge the battery to a nearly 100% state (90%, anyway, which is good enough).

If you're gonna use an inverter for things like lights, computer, TV, whatever, get 2 or 3 of those batteries. Do not plan on getting one battery, then adding another one to it later on if you need more reserve power. It doesn't work that way with batteries. Adding a new battery to an old one will dramatically shorten the life of the new one. Simply figure worst-case on how many amp hours you might draw over a given timespan, then, in order to keep from drawing the batteries down more than 50% DoD, double the amp hours figure, and that's how many amp hours of batteries you'll need. If it's a significant number, like 400 amp hours drawn in a 24 hour period between recharges, which means 800 amp hours of batteries, that's when you need to take a close look at battery monitors and high end batteries. Anything under 150 amp hours between recharges and the cheap batteries will be all you need.

If you do it yourself, please make sure you put an inline fuse (100 amp will do it) as close to the battery as possible for the Espar heater, as well as inline for any and all 12-volt connections. You can do it inline, or you can connect the fuse directly to the battery's positive terminal and then connect the hot wire to the heater.

Slow and steady, even in expediting, wins the race - Aesop

[dhalltoyo]

Wow! Pretty deep stuff.

I would only use the extra battery battery for the heater. When the van is parked, I get out. The only time I want to be inside is to drive and sleep.

Any recommendations for a shop that can do a simple installation with an isolator and the less expensive Marine battery?

[Moot]

I agree with Turtle, use a real battery isolator. I bought an isolator from Hellroaring a few years ago. No problems with the isolator or any of the batteries.

[Turtle]

I'm not familiar enough with the shops in your area, but almost anyone who works on cars and knows electronics can do it. A Dodge dealer or any repair shop, for example, will have at least one tech that knows electronics, and will be able to install an aux battery and isolator with one eye tied behind his back. Anyone who works on boats, or RV's, can do it, too. Any automotive electronics shop (starters, alternators, etc) can do it. A worthless shade-tree mechanic can do it. Even you can do it. The hardest part, by far, will be running the cable from the isolator to the aux battery, cause you'll have to drill a hole either in the firewall or in the floor back near the battery.

Basically, there's a wire going from your alternator to the starter battery. You disconnect that from the battery and connect it to the isolator. You then connect a wire from the isolator to the battery. Then you run a wire (2 gauge or larger) from the isolator to the aux battery. Run a negative cable from the aux battery to a ground (like a bolt in the chassis frame). Done.

[MSinger]

>>Good memory Marty.
>>
>>Actually I sold the 2006 with the Duramax.
>>
>>Got a 2008 coming in with the 6.0L. One battery in the 6.0L.
>>
>>I did order the Heavy Duty Battery and Alternator on the
>>2008.
>>
>>I appreciate your reply.
>>
>>Hopefully a D2 owner will reply too.
>A 2008 with the 6.0 . That's really interesting . Ford
>announced in May it would no longer accept orders for diesel
>vans but announced they are now available . I've heard they
>will be allowed to install the 6.0 without particulate
>filters to use up their stock of 6.0's International
>produced before January but held delvery on until ordered by
>a judge to release them . Once that supply is used up there
>will be no more E Series diesels . Anbody have any info on
>this ?

I think he meant he was getting a 2008 GM with the 6.0L gas not a Ford 6.0L diesel.


2002 GMC Savana 3500 DRW 15' cube 10,000 GVWR "Old Yeller"
former Penske truck