I wonder how Obama will react

[aristotle]

Jaminjim... I am trying to follow this thread but cannot find the central theme in question. Clearly, I am overlooking or missing something. Threads go astray and I get lost. Please restate the salient points and I will try to keep up.

[OntarioVanMan]

Ah yes the problem is that some would have to debate with others and give reasons why something will or will not work. Instead some would rather just state the obvious.

If I were to know about about US politics and foreign policies I could debate better...

But I'll not concede that interfering and killing anyone that opposes Western interests is a solution neither..that would be to assume that ours are better...

There are assumptions out there that THEY are out to get us....I ask WHY?

[layoutshooter]

Why? Let's see, where to start? The radical muslim world has been attacking the west on and off for centuries. Most of the world's other major religious have joined the modern world, except, part of Islam that is dominated by Shirea(sp?) law. Many in that religion are fighting that but are killed off as they fight.

Russia and China have long pursued a path of world domination and have murdered countless numbers in the process. They are in bed with the more radical countries in the world, like Iran, Syria, and North Korea to name a few. Funding them in their attacks on the west.

The left in general as always been about domination. They chose to rule by fear and would build a world government based on terror. Rape, murder, torture and total control of every aspect of human life is the hallmark of the left.

Sorry, OVM, nothing is as simple as saying that we cause the problems. Lebanon should be a good example. Once, not all that long ago called the Paris of the Middle East, now, a waste land. That was done with the backing of Iran, Syria and the Soviets.

Isolationism did not work prior to WWI or WWII. It will not work now. Fight it over there or over here, take your pick, but we will fight it, sooner or latter. The sooner we get real about this and take it on the fewer deaths and the cost will be lowere. Wait, allow them to build a real military and watch out.

Ask your uncles if letting Hitler build an army was a good idea, that is how it is.

[greg334]

The radical muslim world has been attacking the west on and off for centuries. Most of the world's other major religious have joined the modern world, except, part of Islam that is dominated by Shirea(sp?) law. Many in that religion are fighting that but are killed off as they fight.

OK there is a lot more to this than what you are saying. Shari law is not issue but the way it is interpreted and by whom. For the most part we can compare it to the far far religious right here in this country, especially some of the fringe Christian groups who only see one way.

The left in general as always been about domination. They chose to rule by fear and would build a world government based on terror. Rape, murder, torture and total control of every aspect of human life is the hallmark of the left.

The left needs war to be successful, be it a war on poverty or a war that kills people, their mantra is a crisis needs to be addressed and what better crisis can there be but a war on something.

Isolationism did not work prior to WWI or WWII.

Actually it could have but Wilson, like FDR needed to be involved to expand power.

Ask your uncles if letting Hitler build an army was a good idea, that is how it is.

What could actually be done. The treaties setup after the war to reduce fighting forces of most of the countries which could have stopped him in the name of preventing any future wars. It all open the door for Hitler and he took chances that no one called him on which allowed him to move forward in big steps. Could someone stop him? No.

Nevertheless most of the problems we have today with any Muslims and terrorists are directly related to the president we had in 1977 - Jimmy "Peanut Brain" Carter.

[layoutshooter]

I do believe that we could have stopped Hitler prior to his move into the Rhineland. Once England went down that path of appeisment there was no turning back. WWII was unavoidable.

I do totally 100% agree that this latest bunch of trouble with Arabs was caused by the stupidity of Jimmy Carter. He was given very good council on the problems in the Middle East and he ignored it. Then, after he more or less assisted in Iran's fall he again ignored warnings on what was going down with the attack on the Embassy, and the rest is history. He then ignored information where those hostages were and they, at that time, could have been rescued, (we had good help ready in country) and did not move to get them out. Then, after being told not to mount a rescue due to the sandstorm season, he did anyway and we had a disaster.

Clinton and Obama are cut from the same "stupid" cloth as he was.

[OntarioVanMan]

Looks like all the US meddling back to Carter days created an enemy we are fighting to-day...turned the M.E. Really against us...

[Poorboy]

Looks like all the US meddling back to Carter days created an enemy we are fighting to-day...turned the M.E. Really against us...

Carter Was/Is a Complete Fool, Followed by Slick Willy, Then Bush and Now Obumma!! Not a Pretty Sight!!

[layoutshooter]

Not quite right, OVM. Carter believed that the (my spelling will be very wrong here) Aotolla Komenii (whew) Iatolla Cola was a "good guy" and pulled all support for the Shaw. The Shaw was fighting the radical bunch. I think it was Andrew Young that said that the "new group" leading Iran was going to be the best thing to happen to the Middle East.

Carter was a wacko. He had no idea in the world what he was doing. By the way, my agency and most of the other 3 letter agencies were not there working the M.E. problem. Look at where Iran is located in relation to the Soviet Union and some of their more sensitive areas, learn a little about radio signal propagation and you can figure out why we were there.

Why do you have to assume that we are the cause of the problem? Why is it you find it hard to buy that there are just a whole lot of plain old nasty people out there?

[RLENT]

Looks like all the US meddling back to Carter days created an enemy we are fighting to-day...turned the M.E. Really against us...

.... not exactly ..... you need to look a lot farther back than Carter .... read the links I posted in the other thread about CIA (and British) involvement in Iran and the overthrow of their government ..... as but one example of the more fundamental issues ... it goes back further than Carter .....

[OntarioVanMan]

Not quite right, OVM. Carter believed that the (my spelling will be very wrong here) Aotolla Komenii (whew) Iatolla Cola was a "good guy" and pulled all support for the Shaw. The Shaw was fighting the radical bunch. I think it was Andrew Young that said that the "new group" leading Iran was going to be the best thing to happen to the Middle East.

Carter was a wacko. He had no idea in the world what he was doing. By the way, my agency and most of the other 3 letter agencies were not there working the M.E. problem. Look at where Iran is located in relation to the Soviet Union and some of their more sensitive areas, learn a little about radio signal propagation and you can figure out why we were there.

Why do you have to assume that we are the cause of the problem? Why is it you find it hard to buy that there are just a whole lot of plain old nasty people out there?

Because something went drastically wrong somewhere...either our dumping of Afphganistan after the Russians left or a whole compilation of foreign policies that were ill conceived.

BTW. I do not assume we are totally at error.

Oh yeah you talk about history and how it comes back to bit us in the butt....Well here it is....I hate to say this but preventing some of these wars has had a bad effect on the world...this world economy is built on war/destruction...Millions of MORE should be dead BUT they live on because of the West..The cultures we are meddling in have 1,000's of years of history and here some upstart countries are telling them/advising, how they should live their lives. The world population is too big...

[greg334]

.... not exactly ..... you need to look a lot farther back than Carter .... read the links I posted in the other thread about CIA (and British) involvement in Iran and the overthrow of their government ..... as but one example of the more fundamental issues ... it goes back further than Carter .....

You are right about going back, we need to go back to the end of the first world war and what England and France had a hand in and how the area was divided up. The Arabs who fought for the allies were promised independence but were made into slaves by these two countries and the promises made were ignored.

The CIA had a hand in every country from Egypt to Iran but that was at a time when there was cr*p being done by a number of countries. BUT we never exploited any of these countries as a colony or territory.

The problem has been Carter set the tone for the issues we have, the underlying problems within the middle east were pretty much contained until he started to retract support for the leadership in a number of countries, especially in Iran. He weaken our country to be accepted on the world stage as has Obama. When this opened the door to opposition establishing a powerbase in their country, it changed the game and we ended up what we have today. Carter is the blame for it, if we continued our programs of support for containment, then I think we would have been better off.

[RLENT]

Didn't we use sanctions in the 30's and 40's and we caused a war with Japan?

Read the fine print (footnotes) linked below ... maybe something there to be learned (besides just revisionist history ..... or ...... government-sanctioned propaganda):

The 1941 De Facto Embargo on Oil to Japan: A Bureaucratic Reflex - The Pacific Historical Review, Vol. 44, No. 2. by Irvine H. Anderson, Jr.

BTW, if you have access to JSTOR, you could read the entire document - which appears to document the fact that Dean Acheson, as Assistant Secretary of State, designed the American/British/Dutch oil embargo that cut off 95 percent of Japanese oil supplies and escalated the crisis with Japan in 1941 ..... despite the fact that he knew it could produce war.

Given that Japan was importing 80% of it's oil from the US, this also puts your "everyone-else-was-doin'-it-too" comments in the other thread into the correct and proper context:

Yeah, they (everyone else) may have been (doing it too) ... but what they were doing (or not) was insignificant when compared to what we alone, ultimately did do - by cutting off their oil.

[layoutshooter]

That embargo was put in place after Japan attacked China. In the process of that attack they used rape, murder and enslavement to control the people they encountered. They murdered hundreds of thousands there. Just as their Axis powers buddies did every where they went. We stopped them. Thank God we did!!! No one else could have done it. Even if embargo was designed to provoke the attack on Dec 7th it was the right thing to do!! Evil must be stopped every time and every place it raises it's ugly head. Even here.

The leftist movement of the world has taken hold murder, rape and torture become the rule of law. It did in Japan, Germany, Italy, Soviet Russia, China, Viet Nam etc etc etc. The left must be stopped every time it surfaces to murder again.


It has happened throughout history and it it is starting again. We have only two choices, destroy it or or it destroys us.

All the silly hand ringing, moaning and crying will not change it.

This Country is not perfect. We have made mistakes in the past and will in the future. We will make those mistakes because we are men and men are not gods. All men are prone to mistakes.

In spite of the mistakes, no other country in the modern day has sent so many of their own to free others from the scurge of the left.

At least we try!!!

I take pride in my efforts in trying to stop the slaughter. I worked with good men and women who cared!! I get just a bit tired of hearing them ridiculed. THEY DID SOMETHING!! Most in the world and in this country did nothing!!!

When you allow evil to survive, by doing nothing, you give your blessing to the death it causes. The do nothings are just as responsible for what happens as those who do the deed.

You are either the part of the problem or part of the solution.

There are no other options.

There is right and wrong, black and white. That is it.

[RLENT]

Rlent .... Do you think ... now this is strictly opinion ok? Would America be so diligent in the M.E. if oil were not an issue?

Likely not - how involved has the US been in say ....... Iceland ?

Or ..... in Gabon ?

Or in ..... ad infinitum ......

I mean just look at N. Korea .. It is a poor country and has little that would benefit the U.S ... you think that is why we are not at war with them?

Perhaps another fine example where ill-advised, misinformed, disingenuous and double-dealing US foreign policy (circa 1940's: the Cairo, Yalta, and Potsdam Conferences) help to create a disaster .... and eventually war. (Not that it was entirely the US's fault by any measure)

To answer your question, apart from the fact they are now a nuclear power (which complicates matters), ..... follow the money ... or the oil, as the case may be ...... if there had been significant resources that we really wanted I'd imagine that someone would have been trying to use their crayon to draw a line a little further north than the 38th Parallel ...

BTW, we were never in a formally-declared state of war (the weak, effeminate body known as the US Congress having eschewed taking any such masculine actions in recent memory)

The atrocities in some African countries ..... are we battling them?

Of course not ..... (despite an apparent unquenchable thirst to be the world's policeman .... and meddle in everyone's business) .... there's no money in it ......

And then there is CHINA the worse case of hypocracy ever perpetrated by the western world. Where untold thousands have died for just questioning the government. A country that suppresses freedoms and human rights, a communist country no less ... And yet we've let them own us up to the tune of almost 3 TRILLION $$ in US bonds alone!

Not to mention allowing US companies to outsource and move key infrastructure and whole industries (for which there is a national security concern) over there ....

And some wonder at the fact we are viewed as hypocrites ...

Somethings not right, out of balance.

Ya think ?

[RLENT]

But I'll not concede that interfering and killing anyone that opposes Western interests is a solution neither .... that would be to assume that ours are better ...

Indeed. One would assume that in a country which espouses the ideals that All Men Are Created Equal, and have A Right to Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness that these fundamental truths would inform and guide our foreign policy and affairs with others. Sadly, they don't.

There are assumptions out there that THEY are out to get us....I ask WHY?

While it is certainly true that there are bad guys and bad regimes in the world, and we do have valid national security interests and concerns, it also very true that most people in the world, by and large, would just prefer to be free, live their lives, try to survive and better themselves .... and just get on with it. For the most part, they could give a flying you-know-what about us - provided we leave 'em alone.

The reason WHY is that it's an easy sell to a populace who has been placed into a state of fear ..... in case anyone has failed to make the observation: people that are in a state of fear, are cowed, and are in a state of mortal terror .... don't always make the greatest of decisions (the witch trials and burnings of Salem come immediately to mind, as but one example)

It's also a way that some acquire and hold onto to POWER ...

Moreover, the reason WHY is, is that to some extent it's true (that THEY are out to get us) - if only from the perspective that we continue to do things that are only in our interests - to the exclusion of all else - and ignore the legitimate interests of the peoples which such actions on our part affect. This should really come as no surprise to anyone - even the most dull and slow-witted .....

Our actions in this regard would fairly easy to remedy: just stop doing things that are inherently criminal and which, ultimately harm entire populaces .... stuff like supporting and financing repressive regimes and murderous tyrants .....

It ain't rocket-science ......

If I were to know about about US politics and foreign policies I could debate better...

The information is out there, just read and inform yourself - for starters have a look at the following:

Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi

SAVAK (The Shah's Secret Police)

"A U.S. Army colonel working for the CIA was sent to Persia in September 1953 to work with General Teymur Bakhtiar, who was appointed military governor of Tehran in December 1953 and immediately began to assemble the nucleus of a new intelligence organization. The U.S. Army colonel worked closely with Bakhtīār and his subordinates, commanding the new intelligence organization and training its members in basic intelligence techniques, such as surveillance and interrogation methods, the use of intelligence networks, and organizational security." - Encyclopædia Iranica

"In March 1955, the Army colonel was "replaced with a more permanent team of five career CIA officers, including specialists in covert operations, intelligence analysis, and counterintelligence,including Herbert Norman Schwarzkopf" who "trained virtually all of the first generation of SAVAK personnel." (wow ..... guess who's daddy that was ...... some apples don't fall far from the tree indeed ....)

"In 1960/61 the CIA trainers left and were replaced by a team of instructors from the Israeli Mossad" (this was no doubt a very bright move strategically - given that we are talking about a Muslim country ...... from the very same retards no doubt, that were pushing the idea of "containment")

"Chief CIA Iran analyst Jesse Leaf in an interview on 6th Jan. 1979 stated that the CIA teaches Nazi torture techniques to SAVAK."

Of course, what sane people could possibly not want the fine methods developed by the authors of the Holocaust to employed on themselves and their fellow citizens ..... afterall, if it was good enough for Adolph, then why not for us ?

Mr. Leaf further stated in regards to the torture practiced by the SAVAK: "Why should we protest? We were on their side, remember?"

Yeah, why indeed ? ..... I'm quite sure that many do remember ..... and obviously, many would also prefer to forget (as evidenced by some comments here) .... with good reason of course - when one has blood on their hands as a consequence of the acts done in their name, forgetfulness is, indeed, bliss ....

"Although the Iranian use of torture was widely known inside the agency, Mr. Leaf said, he knew of no Americans who admitted that they witnessed such treatment. (this is called plausible denability) "I do remember seeing and being told of people who were there seeing the rooms and being told of torture. And I know that the torture rooms were toured and it was all paid for by the USA."

Undoubtedly Mr. Leaf was a man of very high moral character ......

"Mr. Leaf said he decided to resign from the CIA after receiving an adverse fitness report in 1973. His basic complaint, he said, was that "policy pretty much determines reporting rather than the other way around."

Well now, that last part is certainly particularly interesting ..... in light of Dick "I'm-a-Chickenhawk" Cheney's recent pronouncements and activities over the last 8 or so years ....

"According to Iranian political historian Ervand Abrahamian, after this attack SAVAK interrogators were sent abroad for "scientific training to prevent unwanted deaths from 'brute force.' Brute force was supplemented with the bastinado; sleep deprivation; extensive solitary confinement; glaring searchlights; standing in one place for hours on end; nail extractions; snakes (favored for use with women); electrical shocks with cattle prods, often into the rectum; cigarette burns; sitting on hot grills; acid dripped into nostrils; near-drownings; mock executions; and an electric chair with a large metal mask to muffle screams while amplifying them for the victim." Prisoners were also humiliated by being raped, urinated on, and forced to stand naked.

Hey - what's not to like ?

Iranian Revolution

Ruhollah Khomeini

(There's little doubt that Khomeini ended up being just as bloodthirsty and brutal as what he replaced (if not even more so) - he wasn't a nice guy by any means - but the relevant point would be that had we not interfered to begin with (with all that resulted from that), he might not have even been motivated to become politically active .... but just another unknown mullah in Qom.)

FWIW, before anyone starts, the Wikipedia cites above are done with the full recognition that not everything on it is always accurate, or is unbiased - indeed that is often not the case.

However, in many instances, sources are cited in the footnotes, and the articles point to other more scholarly works that may (or may not) be more neutral, less biased, and perhaps more accurate:

Witness: From the Shah to the Secret Arms Deal : An Insider's Account of U.S. Involvement in Iran - by Mansur Rafizadeh (SAVAK's United States director during the 1970s)

Another possibility would several of Ervand Abrahamian's books:

Books By Ervand Abrahamian

After doing a little reading you can then at least to start to draw your own conclusions as to whether it's all Carter's fault ..... or whether or not all the shenanigans and criminal activity that we were either directly involved in, or indirectly promoted and allowed might have had some bearing on the position that we find ourselves in and the issues that we face today.

Carter was certainly a goober and a dumb**** ..... but the cause of all our current problems ? ..... Pluueease .... such an assertion is ludicrous on it's face, and it's hard to construe such an assertion as anything other than merely a de facto attempt to deny culpability .....

Dunno about you ..... but the idea of having acid poured down my nostrils or boiling water poured into my rectum likely wouldn't make me much of a fan of those proposing such treatments for my edification .... nor of those that had enabled and supported the individuals proposing to do so ......

In fact, it might tend to pizz me off in the extreme .... to the point that I might be inclined to take up arms and do a little edifying of my own ..... and I'm a fairly easy-going sort of guy

Yeah, yeah ...... it was Carter ...... all Jimmy's fault ..... .... ya literally couldn't make that **** up if you tried ....