I wonder how Obama will react

[RLENT]

I don't see Canada doing anything in the world right now. Not that we are, ......

Gee .... first off, you also don't see Canada being targeted wholesale for terrorist attacks like we are ..... (gee - wonder if there is any correlation there ? ) - and that is despite the fact they have participated in activities in regard to the War on Terror.

Most likely it is because they have a significantly less interventionist foreign policy.

If you want to really understand what is driving al Qaeda to target us, then read what bin Laden has written - he lays it out pretty clearly.

It ain't because of what we believe, how we live in this country, our freedoms or any of that other crap that the delusional in the media/political/religious elite are trying to sell.

It is due to what we are doing over there ......

Secondly, if you actually believe that we are doing nothing in the world, I can assure that you are suffering from some type of a hallucinatory state.

[layoutshooter]

What ever you want to believe. I for one am very tired of hearing us blamed for everything wrong in the world. None of what I read or hear matches to what I learned over a lifetime. But, that's ok, it's all our fault, all we have to do is go away and the world will be perfect. Russia is not involved, China is not involved, North Korea is not involved, just us. We did it all.

I have no doubt that if we just crawled into a hole that none of those "bad guys" would ever do anything like they have been doing for years, their reign of rape and murder across the world is likely our fault too. Right?

[RLENT]

I can read an encyclopedia but unless it was written by Japanese people or Gore I don't think anyone established that we in fact started the war.

"It is truly unfortunate that those engaged in public affairs so rarely make notes of transactions passing within their knowledge. Hence history becomes fable instead of fact. The great outlines maybe true, but the incidents and colouring are according to the faith and fancy of the writer." - Thomas Jefferson, 1814

[layoutshooter]

Yeah, Japan did not really join the Axis, or attack China, or use rape and torture as policy, it is a fable to be sure. They had no intention of really enslaving all those people, they were just herding them into those camps to protect them from us.

[greg334]

I think this is funny.

We caused the war with Japan is like saying that we cause Germany to go to war with France. We were not the only one's with embargo and freezing assets. I think Canada and Australia both doing the same thing and our embargo, like scrap metal had a start date which was months in the future after it was passed. We were not the only one's selling oil to them and they had ample supplies before and during the war.

Regardless, no one seems to get the connections between the countries nor understand what actually was the attitude of the people who declared war on us at the time.

Nevertheless our arrogance is well deserved, during the first two years of the war, we supported three theaters of war and provided tons of material to countries and refugees alike. We did what we could while our leaders listened to the people who didn't want to go to war. It took an attack that we may or may not have provoked and our sole effort to defeat the people who killed millions but just like the justification we hear today over terrorist, we have caused all of it.

After the war, we provided money and material to rebuild both Europe and Asia and even handed the Soviets tons and tons of equipment and machinery.

Just a reminder OVM that England, which included its territories, and France both caused the first and second world wars - we didn't. Before any one says a word that I am wrong, look at English history, the House of Hanover, Edward VII and Kaiser Wilhelm and of course Lloyd George to understand what I am getting at. The war was started 11 years before the actual fighting. If you can put it all together, then you will see what the war was really about.

[layoutshooter]

Hey Greg, as an interesting side note, my 11th grade history teacher, Paul Manard, liked to trace the cause of WWI back to the mid 1500's. I don't know if he was right or not, but, he did not teach dates, he taught concepts. Great teacher, he is dead now but I will never forget him. The most important thing I learned from him was how to think for myself.

[RLENT]

What ever you want to believe.

Same to ya .....

I for one am very tired of hearing us blamed for everything wrong in the world.

Sorry - but I have never gone there - I there is no way I possibly could - because I know that would be untrue.

However, just as you are tired of the above, I am tired of the "America-can-do-no-wrong" crowd - those who refuse to take an honest look - and engage in a rational analysis - and attempt to deflect the attention away from the real issue: Are some of the things that we are doing making things better - or are they actually making it worse ?

Such a position is the height of irresponsibility - and is the epitome of someone who refuses to admit any culpability for the current state of affairs within the world.

It's an "it's-all-their-fault" ... an "it-doesn't have-anything to-do-with-me" position .... which is sheer lunacy, if from no other standpoint than mere survival.

None of what I read or hear matches to what I learned over a lifetime. But, that's ok, it's all our fault, all we have to do is go away and the world will be perfect. Russia is not involved, China is not involved, North Korea is not involved, just us. We did it all.

That is an utterly disingenuous attempt to twist my position, and no doubt the position of many, many others.

If you really want to inform yourself of the actual present situation (rather than relying on assumptions about how things might be, based on some stale-dated knowledge and experiences from back in the good old days) I would suggest that for starters, you might want to pickup several books by Micheal Scheurer (<--- click for link), among them:

Marching Toward Hell: America and Islam After Iraq

Imperial Hubris: Why The West Is Losing The War On Terror (<--- click for link)

He has a third, more recent book - Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America - which I have not read yet - that ought to provide some interesting insights from a slightly more current perspective.

Considering that Mr Scheurer was a 22 year veteran analyst of the CIA, was specifically focused on the Middle East and the emerging Islamist terrorist threat, and was the guy that formed and headed (Chief of) the Bin Laden Issue Station, he might just have some unique insights on the nature of things in the Middle East, the Islamist Threat, and what is driving it.

It isn't a pretty picture - and if we allow things continue as they have (meaning our actions specifically), it is likely to get much, much worse - with us having contributed to, and enabled, pretty much the entirety of the Islamic world to become radicalized against us.

I have no doubt that if we just crawled into a hole that none of those "bad guys" would ever do anything like they have been doing for years, their reign of rape and murder across the world is likely our fault too. Right?

UTTERLY WRONG

And of course, you know that that isn't what I'm saying (I do assume that you are at least bright enough .....)

But like I said - if you truly believe that we are doing nothing in the world (I realize that such a statement is merely just an attempt to minimize culpability - and one that is, in fact, completely ludicrous on it's face) - well then those allowing themselves the luxury of such delusions probably have what's coming.

Me personally, I can't afford it - neither can my children, or their children, or their children's children .....

[layoutshooter]

One must always go back to the "good ole days" so to speak since this mess started long before I got in that business and will continue long after I am dead.

I did not say we were doing nothing in the world, just not handling Iran correctly.

As to always being right or wrong, neither can ever be right, as you and I well know. I will tell you one thing, I think we are far more in the right than Iran is, or China, or North Korea, or Russia for that matter. As many mistakes as we may make we do not behave as those pigs do. You have to go back a long way into history to find when the United States was involved in mass murder, unless you count abortion as mass murder as I do. Of course that is a favorite pet of the left, kinda fits, eh?

[hdxpedx]

Blame BUSH!

[OntarioVanMan]

Rlent....

Do you think...now this is strictly opinion ok?

America would be so diligent in the M.E. if oil were not an issue?

Why not sanctions? like we are doing in other "evil" countries.

I mean just look at N. Korea..It is a poor country and has little that would benefit the U.S...you think that is why we are not at war with them?

The atrocities in some African countries..are we battling them?

And then there is CHINA the worse case of hypocracy ever perpetrated by the western world. Where untold thousands have died for just questioning the government.

A country that suppresses freedoms and human rights, a communist country no less...

And yet we've let them own us up to the tune of almost 3 TRILLION $$ in US bonds alone!

Somethings not right, out of balance.

[jaminjim]

This discussion is why I started this thread: http://www.expeditersonline.com/foru...ince-last.html

It seems that several have an opinion on why we are in this situation but no one is offering their solution. I will work on one and post today.

[greg334]

Why not sanctions? like we are doing in other "evil" countries.

Sanctions?

Didn't we use sanctions in the 30's and 40's and we caused a war with Japan?

I mean just look at N. Korea..It is a poor country and has little that would benefit the U.S...you think that is why we are not at war with them?

We are at with war with them, we have a truce with them. We can start firing anytime without congressional approval or nuke them without a problem - I think Japan is thinking about nuking them just in case. NK's real target is Japan and the other successful Asian countries, not SK and the US.

The atrocities in some African countries..are we battling them?

The problem, like the problem with other things say Food for Oil, is the UN. Just this past week there has been a serious complaints about the UN peace keepers being involved with and allowing killing of civilians in the Congo. The UN is complicit in the death of civilians while their charter forbids such action, much like the issue of raping civilians who were being protected under the blue flag. Nothing even comes to it, because it is all a non-issue.

If the US wanted to do something about it, we would have the world against us because it is an African issue, not a US issue and the Africa Union needs to solve their own problems but wants our money to do so. The UN is part of the underlying problems in Africa and has pretty much failed to stop the killings and the slavery issues that still take place on most of the continent.

By the way, I don't know if you noticed something but when we did actually invade Iraq, we uncovered some pretty bad things that the UN was doing. I think that this entire hatred of the US on the Iraq issue has been coming from the UN over the oil for food scam.

[OntarioVanMan]

This discussion is why I started this thread: http://www.expeditersonline.com/foru...ince-last.html

It seems that several have an opinion on why we are in this situation but no one is offering their solution. I will work on one and post today.

Solution? That would call for debate and discussion...

[layoutshooter]

Debate and discuss with who? An enemy hell bent on destroying this country? Obama? Who does not have a clue? Too much "talk" has got us into this mess. Talk is cheap. Those who wish to kill us know that and laugh as we propose new sanctions, treaties etc and use that time to build their military with Russia and China helping. Talk away and allow them to get stronger. Just as in Europe in the 1930's. Worked real good that time, should again now.

[jaminjim]

Solution? That would call for debate and discussion...

Ah yes the problem is that some would have to debate with others and give reasons why something will or will not work. Instead some would rather just state the obvious.