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  1. #31
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Amnesty will lead to citizenship as the road to apply as a landed immigrant will become wide open. Let's face it once these people are forgiven breaking the law many will want to become citizens and some bright spark in the govt is going to push for it. They'll see the possibility in the voting block. Not sure if your stats are like ours but immigrants vote more in elections than do people born and raised here. Many raised in a country gain a sort of apathy with the politicians and their stupidity and ideas and seldom come out and really show their displeasure as quite often there is no other decent choice. This happens even in countries where they have loads of parties (lots of losers to choose from) and of course they get a very fragmented vote.

    Yeah constitution wise you do have one of the oldest. This is because most european countries were monarchies for years and did not have a constitution or otherwise declaring the setup of the government or the rights of the citizens etc. Your republic is older than France as a republic but not as a country (in one shape or another, Frances borders have changed over the centuries).

    I can relate to not wanting something rammed down your throats as this health care thing is being done. Having said that you do have to realize that in order for this option to even have half a chance of working then the majority (or all) must contribute and therefore the govt has to make it so. However the govt is constantly forcing new regulations and laws and taxes and such on us. So this is another tax but supposedly one for the benefit of all.

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  4. #32
    18K Member layoutshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Just keep in mind FSI53, this bill is NOT legal under our Constitution. Why then should we be FORCED to accept it?

    The fact is, the more you do for people the LESS they will do for themselves. More welfare programs equals higher poverty rates.

    Not ONE of the socialist programs in THIS country are doing what they were designed to do. They are chocked full of graft and corruption. They are ALL over budget and and the brink of becoming insolvent. The bills being debated, if passed, will NOT lower the cost of health care, just shift the place where it is paid for and they will INCREASE costs and lower care. That is OUR history.

    You can accept these things in Canada if you like them. I think that you will find that a HUGE number of Americans are FAR more independent than that. Most Americans would rather do it on their own. At least for now. I do fear that as years go on that will change. We seem to be teaching dependence in our schools and turning this country into just ANOTHER country of worker bees and drones.

    Many of us here, myself included will NOT accept this illegal take over of private industry. I think that is the one thing that you, as a Canadian, are not grasping. This is NOT legal!! Therefor, we are NOT bound by the laws and have every RIGHT to fight them.

    If you want to lower health care costs in the United States you have to do it in such a way that government is NOT involved and the laws that are the main cause of our high health care costs are removed. I think you will find that IF a REAL study was done to find out WHY cost are high that the MAIN causes would be do to government interference and silly lawsuits. Change both of those things I would NOT be surprised to see costs fall by as much as 30% or more.

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  6. #33
    Senior Member letzrockexpress's Avatar
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Quote Originally Posted by layoutshooter View Post
    WOW Rocket!! I agree with everything you wrote in that last post!! This has been happening more and more lately!! It my be a trend!! In reality we often say the same thing just in different ways, like good cop, bad cop.

    I tend to be MORE than a bit blunt. Some times it is called RANTING. So be it. Let's make one thing clear, I am NOT opposed to a minor reform to health care. It MUST be based on reality, not fear tactics. It MUST include TORT REFORM or it is NOT reform. I MUST include little or NO government money. Government is corrupt by nature and wasteful by choice.

    The idea is to make it less oppressive for people to provide for their OWN care. That can be done with just a FEW minor changes to mainly STATE laws. The Federal Government has little authority to dictate ANYTHING.

    The bills being considered will destroy our freedoms. Mark my word, they will use this so called "health care reform" to outlaw many things and to control your everyday actions. All in the name "saving health care dollars".
    No question about it..It's the Pied Piper Syndrome.
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  8. #34
    18K Member layoutshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    I doubt it is the Pied Piper thing. I don't see YOU or I EVER being followers. That is a GOOD thing by the way.

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  10. #35
    Senior Member Pilgrim's Avatar
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    In the unlikely event that the current form of this travesty gets passed and signed into law, it will most certainly be tested in court - especially the penalty for not buying govt. mandated health insurance. Just wait until the first person gets fined or better yet, sentenced to jail; they go straight to court and it gets struck down on constitutional grounds. The more the govt. appeals the decision, the worse they look in the eyes of the public. It's also possible that people might refuse to pay the taxes to fund this unconstitutional mandate. This type of intentional non-compliance will only be the beginnings of civil disobedience on the part of freedom loving Americans who refuse to be subjugated by a radical left-wing political party committed to a socialist agenda.
    "One of the penalties of not participating in politics is that you will be governed by your inferiors"
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    "The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools, such as those who made him their president.”
    - from an article in the Prague newspaper Prager Zeitungon.





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  12. #36
    18K Member greg334's Avatar
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Ummm ... Right ...

    OK it may pass through the process of reconciliation with the house bill but it is a long way from being passed and then there is a serious question of constitutionality, there is a serious question of who's right it is to regulate health care contracts between the patient and the provider(s), which also means how are they going to handle the Roe v. wade question of privacy, seeing that part of the bill also regulates health care based on life style, age and other factors that are not within the realm of public's right to know - hence the government's right to know.

    If this does pass, then there is a serious question for those abortion rights people that there is an overturning of Roe v. Wade due to the need for a goverment option or any federal regulations within the frame work of any reform. In other words this can nullify Roe v. Wade if it is forced on us.

    Then we get Rob's point of view, which I understand where he is coming from completely. But there is a slight correction that needs to be made, our country is older than France and Germany. Their goverments ceased to exist a while ago and they went from monarcies to a near democracy (well france is supposed to be a republic but who knows what they was, I think they had 120 governments since their revolution).

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  14. #37
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Just wondering>>> Is there anyone here AGAINST the public option that DOES NOT already have insurance?
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  16. #38
    LDB
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    I have a BCBS policy that costs quite a bit and has huge deductibles however if I needed a transplant or had cancer it would save me a lot. It does basically nothing for day to day or moderate illness. I am against the entire plan, not just the public option.

    I am against the government reaching into your pocket to pay for anything for me.

    I am against the government reaching into my pocket to pay for anything for you.

    Any benefits to one individual from another individual should be voluntary through contributions to churches and other similar organizations that are more honest and more capable than government ever has been or ever will be.

    I am against the government running any program dealing with anything since they are the most inept and most corrupt of anyone as well as being overloaded with lawyers. Look at how close to 100% the damocrats are to being lawyers.
    Last edited by LDB; 11-27-2009 at 11:08 AM.
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  17. 38,340403,39575,21
  18. #39
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Quote Originally Posted by LDB View Post
    I have a BCBS policy that costs quite a bit and has huge deductibles however if I needed a transplant or had cancer it would save me a lot. It does basically nothing for day to day or moderate illness. I am against the entire plan, not just the public option.

    I am against the government reaching into your pocket to pay for anything for me.

    I am against the government reaching into my pocket to pay for anything for you.

    Any benefits to one individual from another individual should be voluntary through contributions to churches and other similar organizations that are more honest and more capable than government ever has been or ever will be.

    I am against the government running any program dealing with anything since they are the most inept and most corrupt of anyone as well as being overloaded with lawyers. Look at how close to 100% the damocrats are to being lawyers.
    But they already reach into your pockets, and corrupt? You dont think private and public companies are corrupt? As well as being overloaded with lawyers? We already pay for the uninsured through higher preminiums. The unisured are reaching into your pockets so why not make them buy insurance?
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  19. 39,340404,39575,21
  20. #40
    Senior Member letzrockexpress's Avatar
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Quote Originally Posted by greg334 View Post
    Ummm ... Right ...

    OK it may pass through the process of reconciliation with the house bill but it is a long way from being passed and then there is a serious question of constitutionality, there is a serious question of who's right it is to regulate health care contracts between the patient and the provider(s), which also means how are they going to handle the Roe v. wade question of privacy, seeing that part of the bill also regulates health care based on life style, age and other factors that are not within the realm of public's right to know - hence the government's right to know.

    If this does pass, then there is a serious question for those abortion rights people that there is an overturning of Roe v. Wade due to the need for a goverment option or any federal regulations within the frame work of any reform. In other words this can nullify Roe v. Wade if it is forced on us.

    Then we get Rob's point of view, which I understand where he is coming from completely. But there is a slight correction that needs to be made, our country is older than France and Germany. Their goverments ceased to exist a while ago and they went from monarcies to a near democracy (well france is supposed to be a republic but who knows what they was, I think they had 120 governments since their revolution).
    Speaking of overturning Roe V. Wade, I think there may be a new movement afoot....

    American Baby Stands Up To Abortion Monger Barack Hussein Obama | ChristWire
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  22. #41
    Senior Member Pilgrim's Avatar
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    It's a matter of choosing between the lesser of two evils. Granted, the insurance industry needs to be forced into certain reforms involving pre-existing conditions, being able to sell policies across state lines, and also significant tort reform that gets rid of frivilous lawsuits. But in spite of all their problems, the private insurance sector is certainly more efficient conducting this business then the govt. could ever hope to be. By its very nature, govt. can not do anything as effectively as the private sector. Just look at the bill itself - 2000 pages of bs created by hundreds of bureaucrats who are only concerned with their own agenda or self interest. We don't want these people to have a monopoly on the administration of our health insurance.
    "One of the penalties of not participating in politics is that you will be governed by your inferiors"
    - Plato


    “People sleep peacefully in their beds at night, because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    - George Orwell

    "The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools, such as those who made him their president.”
    - from an article in the Prague newspaper Prager Zeitungon.





  23. 41,340410,39575,21
  24. #42
    LDB
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Oilerman1957 View Post
    But they already reach into your pockets, and corrupt? You dont think private and public companies are corrupt? As well as being overloaded with lawyers? We already pay for the uninsured through higher preminiums. The unisured are reaching into your pockets so why not make them buy insurance?
    Yes, they are in my pocket far too much already. This bill would just put them much farther into my pocket. Yes, companies are corrupt and have too many lawyers. That's why I said voluntary contributions through churches, the least corrupt organizations although I'm sure not totally corruption free. I'm not at all against not allowing people to buy cable tv, new cars, etc. until they prove they already bought health insurance.
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  25. 42,340412,39575,21
  26. #43
    18K Member greg334's Avatar
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Oilerman1957 View Post
    We already pay for the uninsured through higher preminiums.
    No we don't. We pay higher premiums because of the mandates and lack of competition. We pay higher premiums because people don't take care of themselves.

    The higher cost of medical care is not all about insurance and never was. It is about a system that needs to be fixed by allowing some things to happen and people to take responsibility for their own health.

    BCBS doesn't seem to refuse people with 'pre-existing' conditions and many other insurance companies also don't. The problem with that is choice should be the person's to fnid an insurance policy that fits their needs, which has only to do with the competition within the industry. The tax laws are the real prevention to allowing people more control.

    The problem with insurance is that there is too much that should not be covered by basic policies. I am not talking about a weight lost program or an experimental treatment that can limit cancer's reach in the body but things like Tattoo removal or sex change operation.

    The latter I used as an example and some people here think I am making it up to bash gays but not really. I know of a few cases where BCBS covered the sex change operation at a total cost of $455,000 - excluding follow treatment and hormone medication, that is extra. One case the man turned into a female and he scammed BCBS out of a lot of money (another serious issue for all of us) by claiming he was his "partner's spouse" after he had his final operation and went through the court to change his name. It took an coder to find out what was going on after she was hired to audit the doctors billing.

    Tattoo removal is also something that is very expensive and depending on the state, is part of the mandated package. I think it is NY that has this listed as one of the services paid for, it cost an average of $5000, sometimes as high as $10,000 to have one removed with follow up visits.

    To answer your question, I had no insurance for a while and I made it without any real problems but I would not ever want to have the government have a hand in anything to do with my health care.

    Knowing what I know about the abuses behind the scene with insurance companies, hospitals and especially private practices, it would be 1000 times worst and we would end up with limited care across the board so those with public health care would not "feel" bad about their situation because they would drag the rest of the system down to that level.

    Just the privacy issue alone has me very concern. If you guys don't understand why they want to push for standardized records and the talk of a medical record clearning house, go read 1984 or better yet A Brave New World.

    The other thing is this, with this "health care reform" there is one group who is going to suffer the most in the next 10 years, the seniors. They will get their benefits cut and end up with a lot less then they ever imagined. The second group who will get screwed on all of this is the 18 to 25 years olds who will be forced to take a public option and then have to pay for all of this with more taxes and more fines.

  27. 43,340413,39575,21
  28. #44
    LDB
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Greg gave a good answer leaving out one thing. We pay a HIGHER premiums due to far too many lawyers, people serving on juries and awarding insanely ridiculously high amounts for medical malpractice that in fact was not malpractice and corrupt judges (who are lawyers) failing to throw out many many lawsuits and fine many many shister lawyers who should be sanctioned. Elimination of frivilous lawsuits and sensible limitations on jury awards would have a tremendous positive impact on healthcare costs. That won't happen as long as the elected damocrats are over 90% lawyers.
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  29. 44,340432,39575,21
  30. #45
    18K Member greg334's Avatar
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    Re: Socialized medicine is a done deal

    Actually Leo, malpractice insurance is a supply side issue, not a insurer issue. This raises the cost of all medical procedures simply because it increases the cost of doing business on the doctors/hospitals point of view. I don't think there have been a lot of malpractice suits filed against BCBS.

    Now with that said, here is another thing to think about.

    I do not under any circumstances to have a doctor be part of any health care (aka insurance) reform.

    MOST doctors DO NOT HANDLE their own finances in their practice and DON'T know what the h*ll is going on in the insurance industry or what pateints may or may not face. A lot of this is left up to others who know more about what is going on in the practice than the doctor will even know. This does not mean that there are doctors who do their own billing but that is toooooo few and far between.

    So when Obama and anyone else speaking to doctors (like congress) to find out how to reform health care, they are just making it into another BS feel good issue.

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