Buy Health Insurance or Go to Jail...

**chefdennis** · 11-07-2009, 04:29 PM

the US government also mandates that illegals get coverage..no one ca be turned away...no matter where you are from or who you are....look at all of the border state hospitals that are closed or broke because of the illegals getting care.....

**layoutshooter** · 11-07-2009, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by cheri1122

I'm not going to bother arguing with you, ok? Just like the many who used to participate in discussions, it's not what it used to be, and I have better things to do.
Case in point: Pjjjjj asked some very good questions, but the response was a rant on how the government has no right to require citizens to buy anything [but they do, and have done, for many years]. The answers to her questions were nowhere in evidence - so why bother to ask?
I used to enjoy the debates, but the rants are mindless and monotonous, IMO.

You lost me Cheri. What does the FEDERAL government REQUIRE me to buy under penalty of law? I am aware of NOTHING. Also please show me where in the Constitution of the United States that it gives the Federal Government the authority to do so? I am not arguing, I am lost on what you said. I do ask you, if this is such a good idea, why must it be done by force?

**layoutshooter** · 11-07-2009, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by FIS53

PJ illegals here do get free healthcare! Yup our courts have told the govt to give them coverage while the govt determines their status and also if they just show up at a hospital not a problem. Did you know that the hospitals don't care whose health card you present? Happens here in the GTA a lot. Go in and present any OHIP card and get served even if the picture is not you, don't matter. Yup this is happening right now with our system even though the picture version was created to reduce the fraud (not). Only good part to ours is that you can get served sometime. Our costs for drugs are lower as well which really helps if you have to get a lot of meds.
Rob

Are your drug costs all that much cheaper across the board or just on generics? I know that thousands of Canadians cross into Michigan on a regular basis to purchase medications that are NOT available under the plan in Ontario. I also know that thousands cross into Michigan on a regular basis to get care that they would either have to wait a long time for in Canada OR to avail themselves of treatments and proceedures that are not readily available in Canada. NO system is perfect. ALL have MAJOR flaws and ALL COST!!

**greg334** · 11-07-2009, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by pjjjjj

Forgive me if I'm asking a stupid question or making a stupid comment, as I don't keep up on the day-to-day happenings re your healthcare bills.

Don't feel so bad, much of our country can't follow it let alone want to. Too much information is put out there to confuse and frustrate people so they can cave in and say 'what ever'

Originally Posted by pjjjjj

What I'm getting tho, is that many Americans are totally against having the type of healthcare we have over here, where everyone (except illegal aliens) is covered, for whatever reasons you have (thoughts of inferior healthcare, whatever)..

I think what scares a lot of people is the change to any system that we don't have control over which in our case we do. There is really nothing wrong with the government "helping" people out when they need it but it is the forcing us to make changes to something that works for the majority of the country in order to cover those who don't have health insurance.

Originally Posted by pjjjjj

At the same time, actually paying for healthcare services is way too expensive for normal people to afford if they actually get sick and need surgery / hospitalization, so they have to have an insurance plan to cover them for that possibility.

I don't agree with that, simply because I am one of the examples of being without money and having something major happen, not once but twice in my life. I been without insurance several times in my life and when these events happened, I didn't panic but decided to force the issue onto the doctors who then were willing to work with me, not against me.

Originally Posted by pjjjjj

Then there are lots of people who can't afford the insurance, so they have none. They skim by without paying for anything, until such time as they become sick and need surgery / hospitalization. No insurance, can't afford the costs they're incurring... so who pays those bills? Someone does. Is it the government?

First off this has always been the case, only in the last 15 years it has been a "national crisis". The cost of insurance has gone up too much not because of the insurance companies but because of things outside of their control. One is the mitigating factor involved with this is the punitive damages awards related to medical lawsuits, where in some states there are no limits at all. The other factor is the mandates from the state who actually regulate the insurance programs which should be uniformed.

You must remember that the government doesn't pay a dime in anything, they can't here because we are the government. For every dime spent in for an uninsured person, the cost to the tax payer is 60 cents so the one reason why we need to "insure" people is to bring down the mandated costs affiliated with court orders that everyone must get care.

Originally Posted by pjjjjj

If lots of people with no insurance are getting sick and costing mega bucks, wouldn't it make sense to mandate that you must have insurance? What is the alternative? To continue to pay the outrageous healthcare bills for people who refuse to carry insurance?

Yes that is a logical solution but then other factors come into play, like the need to limit within a budget the care a single person ro family gets. If there is mandated insurance, and the insurance company is not allowed to compete for subscribers, they have a limited amount of revenue that they have to spread thin which means that something has to give. If they are in a state that mandates tattoo removal which is generally $5000 a tat, and one of their subscribers has say 12 or 14 of them to remove, when they look at high cost medical procedures like bone marrow transplant, they may say "ok we got $70,000 going here for tats so we have to limit the medication to prevent rejection for the lukemia patent" and without telling anyone the doctor has to look at what they can now give and base his medical decisions on just the insurance company's inablity to pay. I know that a lot of people will say this happens but it happens in HMOs more than anywhere else.

Originally Posted by pjjjjj

As an outsider looking in, and admittedly not knowing all the details, it just seems to me that no matter what they try to do, they're wrong.

So..... what do you people who oppose 'free' healthcare for all legal residents, as well as opposing a mandated requirement to carry insurance, propose they do about this huge problem?

I would like to start with harmonizing the mandates through out the 50 states. Eliminate this idea that tattoo removals take place over other procedures.

The second thing I know would help is force the states to allow competition over state lines, they don't not because of anything medical but because it is a revenue maker.

The third thing is we need to start cutting back on medicaid and medicare with some of these frivilous things - viagra for medicare subscribers?

The fourth thing that can be done is simple tort reform coupled with a national doctor licensing system where one doctor can't take off to practice somewhere else. With that, we need to limit the amount of foreign doctors who don't go through our system.

The fifth thing is with medicare Part D tell the pharma compaines the same thing your country did - we will pay for X drug at this price - no negotiations and threaten them with pulling their patent on the drug.

Originally Posted by pjjjjj

Should the sick that can't afford either healthcare or insurance be denied medical help? Is that your answer?

Here in this country, unlike other countries anyone who shows up to a hospital must be taken care of. Many times the hospital will provide some sort of follow up care but there are a growing amount of doctors who provide free or near free services.

Remember they, our government who has yet to do anything right, wants to change an entire systtem that works and gives us cutting edge medical care to cover everyone at the cost of those who can afford health care - in other words we have 317 million people in this country, only 12 million have no health care and can't get proper care (it is no where near the 47 million they claim) and that works out to less than 5% of the people who actaully need health care. Instead of takign the stimulas money which has done nothing for us, we could have taken care of 24 million with it and had change left over.

**Oilerman1957** · 11-08-2009, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by layoutshooter

You lost me Cheri. What does the FEDERAL government REQUIRE me to buy under penalty of law? I am aware of NOTHING. Also please show me where in the Constitution of the United States that it gives the Federal Government the authority to do so? I am not arguing, I am lost on what you said. I do ask you, if this is such a good idea, why must it be done by force?

ummmm, Social security? Medicare? Dont pay the tax and see what the penalty is.They also require you to buy everything the federal gov. does, call it a tax or whatever anyone wants to but dont pay your taxes and there is a penalty

**layoutshooter** · 11-08-2009, 09:51 AM

This is the FIRST time in history that an individual American is being FORCED by LAW to purchase a product. That is a BIG difference. As to Social Security and Medicare, they are PRIME examples why GOVCARE will be a major disaster. Those programs are bankrupt due to government fraud and coruption. More proof that socialism and it's programs will always fail.

Your grand kids are going to pay a terrible price. I will not see the true horror that this will bring. I am too old and will not live long enough. I will likely end up in jail. I have already told Dingellberry and the rest of the bunch the I am going to refuse to follow this law, it is unconstitutional and I will resist arrest with any means I have available to me. Mrs. Layoutshooter and I BOTH signed that letter to that fool. I have spent a lifetime fighting this scurge and will not stop now. Old habits die REAL hard.

**Oilerman1957** · 11-08-2009, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by layoutshooter

This is the FIRST time in history that an individual American is being FORCED by LAW to purchase a product. That is a BIG difference. As to Social Security and Medicare, they are PRIME examples why GOVCARE will be a major disaster. Those programs are bankrupt due to government fraud and coruption. More proof that socialism and it's programs will always fail.

Your grand kids are going to pay a terrible price. I will not see the true horror that this will bring. I am too old and will not live long enough. I will likely end up in jail. I have already told Dingellberry and the rest of the bunch the I am going to refuse to follow this law, it is unconstitutional and I will resist arrest with any means I have available to me. Mrs. Layoutshooter and I BOTH signed that letter to that fool. I have spent a lifetime fighting this scurge and will not stop now. Old habits die REAL hard.

Layout, Its not the first time, Social security is a product as is medicare and govcare is just an option, you dont have to buy it, if you like your insurance, keep it. Your also forced to buy everything the gov buys, like a hammer, your forced to buy it through the taxes you pay.

**layoutshooter** · 11-08-2009, 10:06 AM

No, a PRODUCT is SOLD to a person by CHOICE. The others are government PROGRAMS. Bankrupt government programs at that.

MY insurance, a high deductable HSA program is being OUTLAWED by this law. I LIKE it and want to KEEP it. It gives ME and my wife CONTROL of OUR health care. WE have ALWAYS paid for our own health care and CHOOSE NOT to be forced to provide MORE charity to bums. I will fight this. I will NOT give up ANY freedoms to any MAN or Government. I am NOT a lemming.

I would like someone to show me just what part of our Constitution gives this government the POWER of LAW to dictate this to the People. Can you show it to me?

**Oilerman1957** · 11-08-2009, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by layoutshooter

No, a PRODUCT is SOLD to a person by CHOICE. The others are government PROGRAMS. Bankrupt government programs at that.

MY insurance, a high deductable HSA program is being OUTLAWED by this law. I LIKE it and want to KEEP it. It gives ME and my wife CONTROL of OUR health care. WE have ALWAYS paid for our own health care and CHOOSE NOT to be forced to provide MORE charity to bums. I will fight this. I will NOT give up ANY freedoms to any MAN or Government. I am NOT a lemming.

I would like someone to show me just what part of our Constitution gives this government the POWER of LAW to dictate this to the People. Can you show it to me?

First, not everyone that will be helped by this is a bum, no i cant show it to you, can you show me where it says it cant? As far as by choice, that choice was made for you by the gov, just like the many choices they make everyday for us whether we like them or not

**layoutshooter** · 11-08-2009, 10:17 AM

The role of the Federal Government is laid out VERY clearly in the Constitution and the 10th amendment makes it VERY clear that IF it is NOT CLEARLY written in the Constitution it is NOT a federal government function and is reserved for the States and ultimately the People.

As to the rest. Then am I to assume that YOU believe that the government is in CHARGE and RULES the American People? Where did you learn history and civics? When I learned it we were taught that THE PEOPLE control the government here. That the government is subserveant to the People and that the government has NO power over the People. Are you happy to be ruled and controlled? I sir, am not. I was born a free man and will die one.

**Oilerman1957** · 11-08-2009, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by layoutshooter

The role of the Federal Government is laid out VERY clearly in the Constitution and the 10th amendment makes it VERY clear that IF it is NOT CLEARLY written in the Constitution it is NOT a federal government function and is reserved for the States and ultimately the People.

As to the rest. Then am I to assume that YOU believe that the government is in CHARGE and RULES the American People? Where did you learn history and civics? When I learned it we were taught that THE PEOPLE control the government here. That the government is subserveant to the People and that the government has NO power over the People. Are you happy to be ruled and controlled? I sir, am not. I was born a free man and will die one.

Oh i was taught many things, like a mans word is his honor, like if you work hard you will be rewarded, like there was a santa claus, a easter bunny, a tooth fairy. Then came real life.The gov has controlled things since i was born and im 52, your free to do whatever you want to do if you can pay the price.

**layoutshooter** · 11-08-2009, 10:28 AM

And you are willing to accept being ruled? You are happy NOT being a FREE man? I feel sorry for anyone who would rather live as a slave than fight being ruled. It is the way it is because too many are just willing to go with the flow.

I quit my government job in part because I could no longer support the government as it has become. I took an oath to Protect the Constitution from all enemies. I am a man of honor. I see this government as an enemy of the Constitution and the People.

Living without freedom is a true slap in that face of all those who have died to give you this gift of freedom.

**Oilerman1957** · 11-08-2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by layoutshooter

And you are willing to accept being ruled? You are happy NOT being a FREE man? I feel sorry for anyone who would rather live as a slave than fight being ruled. It is the way it is because too many are just willing to go with the flow.

I quit my government job in part because I could no longer support the government as it has become. I took an oath to Protect the Constitution from all enemies. I am a man of honor. I see this government as an enemy of the Constitution and the People.

Living without freedom is a true slap in that face of all those who have died to give you this gift of freedom.

Oh i agree, to many go with the flow, do I agree with how the gov. is run? nooooo. But until we stop voting in the same kinds of people and do away with private financing of politcians things will not change. As i have said before, until we the people start voting in people who are not wealthy and start voting in reg people the system will stay the same

**layoutshooter** · 11-08-2009, 10:44 AM

We MUST vote them out, ALL of them. We also have the RIGHT to resist. This bill is NOT legal under the Constitution and I choose to fight it. So does my wife. That makes TWO for sure. Care to join the push for freedom? A tax revolt will have FAR more clout than elections will. This government is corrupt and MUST be put in their place, which is out. You either accept being ruled or you must find the courage to fight them. There is NO middle ground. It is YOUR choice, freedom or slavery?

**Oilerman1957** · 11-08-2009, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by layoutshooter

We MUST vote them out, ALL of them. We also have the RIGHT to resist. This bill is NOT legal under the Constitution and I choose to fight it. So does my wife. That makes TWO for sure. Care to join the push for freedom? A tax revolt will have FAR more clout than elections will. This government is corrupt and MUST be put in their place, which is out. You either accept being ruled or you must find the courage to fight them. There is NO middle ground. It is YOUR choice, freedom or slavery?

Well, its not just this gov. that is corrupt, it has been so for so longggggggg. This is why i dont say its Obama and his group, They have all been bought and paid for for a long long time. Money, corporations, lobbist have all controlled our gov. for decades