This is a good read!

[layoutshooter]

I don't understand the need to know anybody's 'background' here, when it comes to political/philosophical opinions - the Soapbox was meant as a place to discuss and debate issues, not personalities.
Credentials matter if you're offering advice to newbies on expediting, but what does it matter as far as expressing an opinion?

A persons backround gives insight to thier philosophy, thier polititcal beliefs, thier moral beliefs everything. By backround I mean mainly education, jobs experience etc. In my case, I base my ideas on my 20 years in the intell service. I have also a lot of emergecy services backround at the local, state and Federal level. That influences my opinions. The more you learn and know about a person the more you can understand what they are saying. I don't understand most of what Doug says. It is mainly just slogans. I don't get much insight into his thought process. That makes it very difficult to gauge what he is saying. That makes it almost impossible to have a real conversation and that makes it almost impossible to learn anything from him. That is a shame. One should always strive to learn from others, I can't without that insight. Opinions just don't "float" into a persons mind. They are based on that persons life/experiences and backround. Just trying to learn Cherii. Understand? I hope so. Many in here don't seem too.

[cheri1122]

That was a very good reply. Can't agree with it, but it was well written, and without the ranting you frequently indulge in.
The reason I disagree is that people are more than the sum of their parts, and the thinking person takes in new facts and ideas every day, causing their opinions to evolve [or sometimes, to harden.] I think you run the risk of stereotyping folks, or 'judging a book by it's cover' when you NEED to know their background before you can evaluate their statements. I'd rather judge an opinion on its' merits, than its' author, myself.
For what it's worth, I have no problem understanding what Doug says - or what you say, either. And I particularly dislike slogans, which are usually a substitute for an actual thought.

[OntarioVanMan]

The last few threads have been nothing but slurs from BOTH sides...with a lot of repeating the same slogans from BOTH sides of the argument...since there was been little intelligent debate.

[DougTravels]

I worked at 14 for a body shop doing odd jobs
At 16 got a job as a busboy and hated it
Took a job delivering Pizzas by 17 with 6 months of HS left made manager, and was put on a commision 20% of sales went to me and I paid all payroll out of it. I was on Co-op my senior year I just had to go in for Gov't and a half hour a week for Coop seminar. I was making more money than my folks my senior year. Averaged about 500 a week take home this was 1981.
With 2 months left of High School bought new car and my own place 18th B'day moved out of parents house.
The next year with help from my folks (Home Mortgage)we opened Dougs Pizza Depot in Madison Hgts Mi Jan 1983.
It was a real struggle and alot of pressure for a 19 year old the place had gone through 5 owners in the previous 2 years, We managed to last almost 5 years Nov 87 sold it for enough to take care of my parents house. Whew! New owner closed it within 3 months.
I married in 1986 during the pizza years. I worked for neros and Dominoes the next few months. The guy who delivered my linens Al Kramer (I owe alot to Al) put in a good word for me with Banner Linen Service a Teamster job. Things went well there for 4 yrs when we had a huge strike (7mths)they were trying to screw over the ones about to retire and force them out. (New health ins with retires to pay 400 per mth subject to increases vs 50 a month for teamsters bluecross for life).
I spoke with my father who had 3 brain tumors removed between 1978 and 1991 on easter sunday before the strike. He had been a union steward for 19 yrs he said if they roll the trucks without you, you will lose. This was the last time I ever spoke with him, he and my mom packed their pickup truck camper and went to Oklahoma to visit my Aunts family. He died of a heart attack while night fishing with my cousins on Apr28 1992. Just days before his 59th birthday.
After burying my dad in Belleville I was a terror on the picket line, I was arrested 3 times during the strike, One night sitting in Madison heights jail I got a call from Jimmy Hoffa Jr. telling me I would have to stay the night.
The strike went on and me and a couple of others became obstacles for settling because Banner wanted no part of us. The teamsters got me a job with an independent uniform co. a really good job. 6 months in they sold out to Arrow uniform and i was told with the new pay rate I would lose about 200 per week. I quit on the spot. Since my pay was cut I was elligible for about 6 months of unemployment and my wife was working.
In my basement with a credit card I started A-1 Budget Linen Service in April of 1993. That company grew out of my basement and ended up with me my wife and 4 employees running 2 routes out of a 6000 square foot building. In 2004 I was approached by a bigger company and those bas tards offered me about 30% more than my Co. was worth. I sold it and gave the 4 employees close to 40k in bonuses. They also received jobs with the new co.
After almost 11 years without a week off the wife and i relaxed for a few months. The first summer I bought an Ice cream truck and did pretty good running that no stress. The next summer I bought a retired ambulance and converted that to an ice cream truck and the wife and i ran them and did pretty well.
That fall my nephew who was a regional sales rep for Conway Now told me that there was good money in expediting so I bought this truck and here i am. The Ice cream trucks sat a yr and a half then we sold them.

DSC01962.jpg

Attachment 1325

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Attachment 1326

Attachment 1327

Attachment 1328

Some of the Pizza Pics won't show but if you click them they do, My Pizza place, 1325 is my dad and me at the pizzeria, me working there and my new bride working there. If you want more on my life story on my blog there are 2 family videos also. On you tube there are some videos of my daughter when she is little as well look up user nmanders8
My blood type and medical info you would have to talk to my Dr.
Now can I tell you that most of what you post is nearsighted rightwing drivel that is either outdated misplaced or just plain wrong.

Thanks for the project 007

[LDB]

You and your cohorts here like to point blame at Clinton and Carter when the fact is 911 occured under W's watch and he is the one it falls on.

You are just back in baiting mode with this one right? Or do you truly believe an operation like 9/11 was planned, put together, and implemented in half a year? Yes, 9/11 occurred during Bush's first term and no it doesn't fall on him. The enemy may have figured he wouldn't give them what for the way Reagan would have, the last president who'd have exacted total accountability. Alternately, the enemy may have figured out that after the excessive Clinton weakening and cutting of the military we couldn't exact total accountability even if we wanted to, absent a nuclear strike. If Bush is guilty of anything related to 9/11 it's only of failing to strike so hard and so completely the problem would have been eliminated at the time.

[aristotle]

Yada Yada Yada same ole song and dance from you, Go ahead insult me, you know nothing of me. I like it that way.

Most American lives lost since Viet Nam by the Bush administration.

Most American lives PROTECTED since Viet Nam by the Bush administration.

[DougTravels]

You are just back in baiting mode with this one right? Or do you truly believe an operation like 9/11 was planned, put together, and implemented in half a year? Yes, 9/11 occurred during Bush's first term and no it doesn't fall on him. The enemy may have figured he wouldn't give them what for the way Reagan would have, the last president who'd have exacted total accountability. Alternately, the enemy may have figured out that after the excessive Clinton weakening and cutting of the military we couldn't exact total accountability even if we wanted to, absent a nuclear strike. If Bush is guilty of anything related to 9/11 it's only of failing to strike so hard and so completely the problem would have been eliminated at the time.

Me baiting have you lost it!

You guys blame Carter for the Iraq war and I am the one baiting??

911 happened on W's watch

[cheri1122]

Most American lives PROTECTED since Viet Nam by the Bush administration.

Where's the proof to back that up?

[DougTravels]

Proof- They don't need no stinking proof

or badges

[Turtle]

I'll say it again, the only way to defeat this enemy from without, is from within. Talking won't work, fighting won't work. Look carefully at what Obama is doing and you might see something other than what you think you see. Don't look at it through the colored glasses of "I hate Obama" or "I love Obama", look at what he's doing. Don't even look at what he's saying, since you'll infer what you want to about that based on your own beliefs. Look at what he's doing, the results of what he's saying more than what he's saying. It's gonna take some time, but of he sticks with it and follows up on it in the correct way, it'll work. The only way you will defeat radical Islam is not from without, but from within. You cannot force them to change their mind, you have to allow them to do it own their own, from within. Watch.

Watch what he's doing. He's not trying to convince or confront the extremists. He's talking to the rest of the Muslim world, the overwhelming majority of them, who are against the extremists, but also the ones on the fence who can be persuaded by the extremists. Once persuaded, it's a domino effect for either side. Others will follow. There are many, many Muslims who are against the extremists, but will not stand up to their religious leaders, even if the leaders are extremists. Islam will not allow it. Most will sit back and let it happen, because whatever happens has already been ordained by Allah. Most Muslims are sheeple, just trying to get by like the rest of us, so they'll sit back and watch it all happen. But, if you can convince the pseudo-radicals, the less committed and conflicted Muslims, to stay on this side of the fence, the sheeple will sit back and let that happen, too, and eventually the other side of the fence is pretty thin.

He's praising peace, same as Muhammed did. He's praising the major accomplishments of Muslims to world history and civilization. He's making an effort to let them know that he's not out to attack Islam, which will give them a justification for jihad. Telling them what to do and how to think, or fighting them, gives them, all of them, radicals and non-radicals like, a justification for jihad. Actually, it's not even a justification, as that's too weak of a word. Their Scripture demands a jihad, one that is ordained by Allah.

Layout, if you're going to slam someone because you think they don't have a clue about the REAL world, the least you could do is get a clue about REAL world of Islam and Muslims, how they think and what they respond to, and most importantly, why they think the way they do. You will not be able to force these people to do what you want them to do, or to think the way you want them to. If you try to do so, be it by talking or fighting, it is absolutely correctly perceived an attack on Islam and thus requires, demands, a pre-ordained jihad in response.

The extremists have interpreted things very narrowly in order to justify the jihad. But when you start telling Muslims as an entire group how to thing and what to do, especially by force, then it's not open to interpretation, it's right there in black and white for all Muslims to see, and all Muslims will rise up in jihad. If you attack the extremists, and only the extremists, you are still attacking Muslims, and therefor Islam, and all Muslims will see that as a threat. The old scool tactics of western and traditional thought will not work on these people.

You say "the tact that Obama is taking has failed every time it has been tried and most likely will fail again," yet you are completely missing what his tact is. This is not a case of "either/or" where talk will fail and might will win. That will work for nearly any group of people on the planet except Muslims. You and are completely missing what he's doing. What he's doing has never been tried before, at least not on this scale. From what I've seen so far, his tact is precisely what he should be doing. Instead of seeing the talk, take a close look at what that talk does. That's the tact he's using, and if he sticks with it, it'll work.

You two, Layout and Doug, are driving me crazy. Doug's praising Obama just for the Hеll of it, likely just to jerk your chain, and you keep letting him, and you're slamming Obama for essentially the same reason (justified in your mind for other reasons notwithstanding). Clearly, without a doubt, neither one of you know thine enemy well enough to praise or condemn Obama for what he's doing right now.

Know thine enemy, dаmnіt.

[aristotle]

Where's the proof to back that up?

Check out the US Census.

[DougTravels]

Check out the US Census.

That is no answer.

[DougTravels]

I'll say it again, the only way to defeat this enemy from without, is from within. Talking won't work, fighting won't work. Look carefully at what Obama is doing and you might see something other than what you think you see. Don't look at it through the colored glasses of "I hate Obama" or "I love Obama", look at what he's doing. Don't even look at what he's saying, since you'll infer what you want to about that based on your own beliefs. Look at what he's doing, the results of what he's saying more than what he's saying. It's gonna take some time, but of he sticks with it and follows up on it in the correct way, it'll work. The only way you will defeat radical Islam is not from without, but from within. You cannot force them to change their mind, you have to allow them to do it own their own, from within. Watch.

Watch what he's doing. He's not trying to convince or confront the extremists. He's talking to the rest of the Muslim world, the overwhelming majority of them, who are against the extremists, but also the ones on the fence who can be persuaded by the extremists. Once persuaded, it's a domino effect for either side. Others will follow. There are many, many Muslims who are against the extremists, but will not stand up to their religious leaders, even if the leaders are extremists. Islam will not allow it. Most will sit back and let it happen, because whatever happens has already been ordained by Allah. Most Muslims are sheeple, just trying to get by like the rest of us, so they'll sit back and watch it all happen. But, if you can convince the pseudo-radicals, the less committed and conflicted Muslims, to stay on this side of the fence, the sheeple will sit back and let that happen, too, and eventually the other side of the fence is pretty thin.

He's praising peace, same as Muhammed did. He's praising the major accomplishments of Muslims to world history and civilization. He's making an effort to let them know that he's not out to attack Islam, which will give them a justification for jihad. Telling them what to do and how to think, or fighting them, gives them, all of them, radicals and non-radicals like, a justification for jihad. Actually, it's not even a justification, as that's too weak of a word. Their Scripture demands a jihad, one that is ordained by Allah.

Layout, if you're going to slam someone because you think they don't have a clue about the REAL world, the least you could do is get a clue about REAL world of Islam and Muslims, how they think and what they respond to, and most importantly, why they think the way they do. You will not be able to force these people to do what you want them to do, or to think the way you want them to. If you try to do so, be it by talking or fighting, it is absolutely correctly perceived an attack on Islam and thus requires, demands, a pre-ordained jihad in response.

The extremists have interpreted things very narrowly in order to justify the jihad. But when you start telling Muslims as an entire group how to thing and what to do, especially by force, then it's not open to interpretation, it's right there in black and white for all Muslims to see, and all Muslims will rise up in jihad. If you attack the extremists, and only the extremists, you are still attacking Muslims, and therefor Islam, and all Muslims will see that as a threat. The old scool tactics of western and traditional thought will not work on these people.

You say "the tact that Obama is taking has failed every time it has been tried and most likely will fail again," yet you are completely missing what his tact is. This is not a case of "either/or" where talk will fail and might will win. That will work for nearly any group of people on the planet except Muslims. You and are completely missing what he's doing. What he's doing has never been tried before, at least not on this scale. From what I've seen so far, his tact is precisely what he should be doing. Instead of seeing the talk, take a close look at what that talk does. That's the tact he's using, and if he sticks with it, it'll work.

You two, Layout and Doug, are driving me crazy. Doug's praising Obama just for the Hеll of it, likely just to jerk your chain, and you keep letting him, and you're slamming Obama for essentially the same reason (justified in your mind for other reasons notwithstanding). Clearly, without a doubt, neither one of you know thine enemy well enough to praise or condemn Obama for what he's doing right now.

Know thine enemy, dаmnіt.

Thank you turtle, what you said is alot of what was in the article I posted and doubt many here got. I see you did and explained it well.
Again Thank You!

[aristotle]

That is no answer.

It was a literal answer. George W. was protecting 300 million American lives.

[DougTravels]

It was a literal answer. George W. was protecting 300 million American lives.

I guess if it were not for W. we'd all be dead. So the few thousand who died in Iraq would be dead anyways.