What grade would you give?

[cheri1122]

Y'all keep insisting (as does Bush himself) that he kept us from being attacked again - if you believe that, with no evidence except the fact that we haven't been attacked (again), then have I got a deal for you: an anti-lightning suit of my own invention, which I can prove is effective, as I've never been struck.
Bush failed miserably - to find the real villain (Bin Laden), to persuade most of our allies that Iraq presented a convincing threat to us, to prevent the financial meltdown we're now trying to avoid, to improve education (his No Child Left Behind was a total failure at anything but improving test scores, which are NOT a reliable indication of anything except the ability to pass a test - this time), to improve the situation for anyone in the country except the already wealthy (tax breaks, reduction of capital gains rates, lax oversight of the agencies charged with keeping the 'market' on the up & up, etc, ad nauseum)
He "wasn't impeached" - glory be, what an accolade! He "didn't do anything improper with a cigar" - that we know of, anyhow, and again: what an accolade that is, eh?
Bush was (so far) the worst president ever, IMO, leaving America in much worse shape than he found it. The recovery will not be easy, and I only hope Obama can get a good start on rebuilding the trust that Bush has lost, both at home and abroad. On that score, only time will tell.
I hope that government "of, by, and FOR the people" hasn't already perished from the Earth, entirely, because it hasn't been seen here for a long time.

[layoutshooter]

Cheri, no offense, but I have read things that you have written before. One thing is clear. You know as little about defense or the intell services as Obama does. I don't like Bush, but he is NOT the one that gutted our defenses, Clinton did. Bush has been working very hard to rebuild the damage but it will take at least 20 years to repair what Clinton did. That is, unless Obama pulls a Carter and Clinton and finishs off our defenses. We can argue policy, morals etc. Defense is the MAIN job of the Federal Government. It is NOT a job for rookies. I will tell me nephew and son to strongly think about getting out of the service the next time they are up for re-enlistment. Frankly, I would not serve under Obama. I refused to serve under Clinton and was proved right. From what I see of the American people anymore, they are just not worth the trouble. Over 1 million Americans have died to defend our freedom. This election proves it was a waste of lives. I hold nothing against you or your ideas, but it seem that they are based on the "Regular" news and not on what is really going on. Many fall for the "Stuff" them by the "Awful Broadcasting" 'Communist News network" "Crummmy Broadcasting system" "Nutty Broadcsasting" and "Foolish Fox" I get my news from those on the front lines. Those who do, not talk. I pray I am wrong but I fear that all of us, including you, are going to pay a horrible price by delving into Marxism. That way of life accounted for the murder of close to 100 million people last century and is still murdering today. By the way, we might now have got Bin Ladin. We did not get Stalin or Hitler, but we still beat them. Layoutshooter

[cheri1122]

Gotta disagree, (surprise!). First, that defense is the main job of the President, (though it's certainly your main preoccupation, which is understandable, given your personal background). Defense is just one of many areas for which the President and his chosen delegates are responsible. It's certainly the first priority in times of imminent danger, (such as 9/11), but otherwise should not be consuming the majority of our resources - when it is, there's something wrong, I'd say. America has appointed itself a 'Master of the Universe", which is ironic, given the mess our economy, not to mention health, education, and infrastructure are currently in.
"Government of, by, and for the people" - which part of that is so hard for everyone to understand? The people don't want to rule the whole world, we want to grow up in peace, raise our families, educate our offspring, pay our bills, buy a home, save for retirement - you know: "The American Dream", right?
PS You're wrong about where I get the news from, too: I haven't watched tv in many years now, just surf the net, gathering (like a rolling stone, lol) whatever interests me, from a variety of sources. I am not as knowledgeable as some, but I have strong opinions on how the government is meant to work - and hasn't for awhile, but most especially on W's watch..

[flattop40]

Gotta disagree, (surprise!). First, that defense is the main job of the President, (though it's certainly your main preoccupation, which is understandable, given your personal background). Defense is just one of many areas for which the President and his chosen delegates are responsible. It's certainly the first priority in times of imminent danger, (such as 9/11), but otherwise should not be consuming the majority of our resources - when it is, there's something wrong, I'd say. America has appointed itself a 'Master of the Universe", which is ironic, given the mess our economy, not to mention health, education, and infrastructure are currently in.
"Government of, by, and for the people" - which part of that is so hard for everyone to understand? The people don't want to rule the whole world, we want to grow up in peace, raise our families, educate our offspring, pay our bills, buy a home, save for retirement - you know: "The American Dream", right?
PS You're wrong about where I get the news from, too: I haven't watched tv in many years now, just surf the net, gathering (like a rolling stone, lol) whatever interests me, from a variety of sources. I am not as knowledgeable as some, but I have strong opinions on how the government is meant to work - and hasn't for awhile, but most especially on W's watch..

WOW Cheri who lit the fuse on your tampon? I don't think I have seen you this outspoken before. It's kind of a turn on

[RLENT]

Y'all keep insisting (as does Bush himself) that he kept us from being attacked again - if you believe that, with no evidence except the fact that we haven't been attacked (again), then have I got a deal for you: an anti-lightning suit of my own invention, which I can prove is effective, as I've never been struck.

Heheheh .... excellent point ..... it's kinda like goin' to the track with a buddy .... and your buddy wins the long odds .... and you claim that you caused it .... simply 'cause you were there, standing next to him ..... afterall ..... it's just so obvious ....

I'm utterly amazed at how easily people will assign a source of causation to something or someone ..... all without the benefit of direct observation ...... "Bush did this ..." ..... and "Clinton did that ..."

Quite likely what kept us from being attacked again was not anything that Bush or Cheney did .... but things done by many folks whose names we'll never know .... in the intelligence community, the armed forces, and Homeland Security, among others ..... (it's to some extent, like a machine ... it runs on automatic to a degree)

Just as what got us attacked in the first place was not anything that Bush (II) or Cheney did specifically .... but things done (in our name) by many folks whose names we'll never know (and a few we do) .... in the intelligence community, the armed forces, and Homeland Security, among others .....

Bush failed miserably - to find the real villain (Bin Laden),

Strike one ......

to persuade most of our allies that Iraq presented a convincing threat to us,

Strike two ....

to prevent the financial meltdown we're now trying to avoid,

Not only did he fail to prevent it - but he's actually made it worse - much, much worse.

But then I would say the financial mess didn't just happen .... it was caused .... same as the Great Depression ..... same players for the most part .... sometimes under different names ....

Anybody noticing that some major financial entities (Chase, Bank of America) are picking up these supposedly bankrupt firms for a pittance ?

And being given your tax dollars to do it ...... wake up folks .....

Osama, while a real threat, ain't but a fly ..... Hamas ..... last time I looked, they weren't able to even mount an effective attack on their neighbor next door - let alone an ocean away ....

No, the real enemies are much closer to home ..... but the above, and others like them, make real good devices to fixate your attention ..... lest you look around other places

He "wasn't impeached" - glory be, what an accolade!

Yes indeed .... like he was really going to be .... given that his party for the most part controlled both Houses ...

The logic of that point is like "I've never gotten a ticket ... or been in a wreck ... so that means I'm a great driver !" ..... yeah .... sure it does .....

Bush was (so far) the worst president ever, IMO, leaving America in much worse shape than he found it.

Hard to argue against statistics .... ain't it ? .... happened on his watch ....

He's the dimwit that brought in Hank Paulson as Treasury Sec ... the head of a Wall Street firm ..... that gave away $700 billion of YOUR MONEY .... well ... your's .... and your children's ..... and their children's ..... ad nauseam .....

And he wanted to do it with literally no strings or oversight ..... ("Just trust us .... it's bad - but we can fix it .... but it's so bad that we can't even tell you the details ..... just trust us - you really don't want to know ... and besides it's too complex for you to understand ....")

Most folks really don't understand the magnitude of the financial crimes that have been committed by Bush & his cronies against the American people ...... between Iraq (which some are getting rich off of), the bailouts, .... and the rest of the profligate spending that took place on his watch (while having both Houses of Congress controlled by his party ......)

You (meaning people generally) have been sold into economic slavery (not only that - but your children - and their children, as well) ..... and yet you still believe you are free .... it would almost be hilarious ... if it weren't so sad ....

The biggest thing that Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress could have done to preserve Freedom and Liberty in the United States would have been to abolish the income tax and eliminate the IRS - because it is thru that mechanism that we are, and will be, enslaved - and it is the single biggest thing which makes us, as a country, uncompetitive. Forget the UAW and the unions - while they don't help matters, they aren't as big of a problem as some would make them out to be - mostly a red herring. The biggest thing is that the cost of the income tax (and the all the compliance costs) and the regulatory burdens that companies have to live under here in the US are incorporated into the price of everything we produce ... and are not in the price of foreign produced goods that we have to compete against ....

They actually floated some trial balloons on eliminating the tax code and the IRS right after he took office ..... I was there (in DC) at the time ..... fighting that fight. ...... it ended up going nowhere .... the sheeple were too busy watching American Idol and Survivor to demand change .... and various "interests" had no interest in changing the status quo ...... why change anything - if you have already rigged the playing field to your (sometimes exclusive) advantage thru the law and the tax code ?

The recovery will not be easy, and I only hope Obama can get a good start on rebuilding the trust that Bush has lost, both at home and abroad. On that score, only time will tell.

One can always hope .... but I ain't holding my breathe ....

Sometimes when confronted with situations of magnitude, a rather common man may rise to the occasion and do great things ....

But my bet is Obama is just another pol ..... like the many that have passed before him .....

I hope that government "of, by, and FOR the people" hasn't already perished from the Earth, entirely, because it hasn't been seen here for a long time.

At least 50 years .... really, more like close to 100 .....

BTW, my views are not based on "the regular news" ..... rarely, if ever watch it - like Cheri, I get my info from many places ..... including from a few sources "inside the Beltway" .... (I could post some really cute candid photos of the shrub at the wh - they're at home on the desktop - but it might get in me in hotwater ...... )

Grade by the way is: F

[RLENT]

America has appointed itself a 'Master of the Universe", which is ironic, given the mess our economy, not to mention health, education, and infrastructure are currently in.

What is truly ironic about it is being a country which was founded on, and currently professes a belief in, FREEDOM .... but apparently only if it is our officially-sanctioned and sanitized version of "freedom". Or only that "freedom" that we approve of (which of course, immediately makes it something other than freedom) ...... it's what makes us (our government really, not necessarily the people) look like hypocrites in the eyes of the rest of the world.

The people don't want to rule the whole world, we want to grow up in peace, raise our families, educate our offspring, pay our bills, buy a home, save for retirement - you know: "The American Dream", right?

Yup - as do almost all other people in the world .... it is something basic ...... inherent in Man's nature.

Few are those who feel compelled to seek dominion over others .... unfortunately, they create alot of chaos and havoc for the rest of us.

[RLENT]

WOW Cheri who lit the fuse on your tampon? I don't think I have seen you this outspoken before. It's kind of a turn on

Possibly one of less intelligent replies I've seen on here in some time .... perhaps you might be able to respond to her post on the merits, and argue the ideas instead .... that is, if it isn't too much of a stretch for ya .......

[OntarioVanMan]

What is truly ironic about it is being a country which was founded on, and currently professes a belief in, FREEDOM .... but apparently only if it is our officially-sanctioned and sanitized version of "freedom". Or only that "freedom" that we approve of (which of course, immediately makes it something other than freedom) ...... it's what makes us (our government really, not necessarily the people) look like hypocrites in the eyes of the rest of the world.


Yup - as do almost all other people in the world .... it is something basic ...... inherent in Man's nature.

Few are those who feel compelled to seek dominion over others .... unfortunately, they create alot of chaos and havoc for the rest of us.

Thats exactly the words I was trying to describe..THANK YOU RANDY!!

The gang in here don't understand what I see as an outsider...because they are American and most ex-military...and have this inherent belief in AMERICAN defined FREEDOM...and IF it isn't an AMERICAN type of FREEDOM it isn't good enough....
And to go around the world and preach AMERICAN freedom is hypocritical.

To the common AMERICAN you have YOUR freedom as defined by you and others like you...

Using Canada as an example...They have their version of FREEDOM not like yours but they are FREE to come an go as they please. They elect the Government a FREE peoples.

Canadians for the most part are happy...they have Canadian style FREEDOM....they can do what they want..start businesses..be an emtrepeneur...chose there life profession, go to the university of their own chosing. they are FREE to succeed or chose failure....It is CANADIAN FREEDOM..Sure theres a lot of government programs that are ACCEPTED by the people!

YOU have NO justification to say the Canadian FREEDOM is no good...thats hypocritical.

They are NO longer ruled by the Crown and have thier own constituton...which is modeled quite simular to the American version..Thank YOU for that...

[layoutshooter]

Gee Cheri, what does "Provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare" mean? There is a big difference in the words provide and promote. I see nothing that gives the President power over the economy. You can have what ever you want in Canada, OVM, try to take away ANY freedom of mine and it fightin time. When I say Clinton caused the intell failures that lead to 9/11 I can prove that. I can point out programs that fool cut out that directly led to our decreased ability to see that attack coming. 9/11 is the result you get when you hire people that 'taint got a clue what thier job is. HE CAUSED DEATHS.
Obama is even dumber than Clinton, hard to believe, but it's true. It takes 10-15 YEARS to devolpe a good intell agent. They can only be good if they work thier way up from the bottom. You can't build a house from the roof down. Everything Clinton did with the intell agencies was at best counter-productive, at worst, criminal. Obama, with the appointment of Penneta has proven he too knows absolutely nothing about that business. He has shown that he cares little about it and has no clue on how to get the best work out of people. You guys wanted this goober, you got him. The deaths that will happen due to his stupidity are on your shoulders, not mine. I won my war. I kept you safe to ridicule everything I did with my life. Yea, I take it personal. Layoutshooter

[OntarioVanMan]

Layout said..

You can have what ever you want in Canada, OVM, try to take away ANY freedom of mine and it fightin time.

Joe I will one day have the priviledge to be a citizen of 2 of the greatest countries in the world! I will adapt to the American FREEDOM as well....One is not more wrong then the other just subtly different....I'll fight for both!!! I'll have your back any time!!...

[layoutshooter]

You are right, there IS nothing wrong with either system, in thier place. I could not live in Canada. I don't like all the government intrusion in the lives of private citizens. The taxes. I know a good bit about all of the "tax cheating" that goes on up there. I used to sorta help Canadians cheat on thier taxes. Many Canadians used to come down from Ont to the Cabela's that I used to work at in Dundee MI. They would pull thier boats down unde the guise they were going to fish down here. While here they would buy electronics for the boats, fish finders, radios etc. As much as they could afford. They would pay the extra to have us install it, even if it meant staying overnight. Why? Canadian import and sales taxes. Those taxes were soooo high that even with the added cost of installation and motel rooms they could save as much as 40% on thier equipment. They were never checked at the boarder. The equipment was now on the boat and Canadian customs did not track what equipment they left with or came back with. I once took a fishing trip to the French River in Canada. I hired a guide for the first day to cut down on my learning curve on the river. We talked as we fished. He was an auto worker and made good money. Over $80 per day. (it was a whild ago) I paid him $50 under the table. He missed the day of work and was able to pocket the entire $50 which was much more than what he kept on the $80 from the auto plant. Thanks for having my back. You might be one of the few that do. Layoutshooter

[aristotle]

What's in the drinking water in Ohio? These diatribes go a long way toward explaining why business and manufacturing are fleeing the Buckeye state. I wouldn't expect to ever see another automotive plant or any viable manufacturer to build north of the Ohio River. Why would any new venture want to relocate in hostile territory?

[highway star]

WOW Cheri who lit the fuse on your tampon? I don't think I have seen you this outspoken before. It's kind of a turn on

I noticed you dropped the "present day comedian" thing from your sig. Is this an example of the reason why? Clearly, anything but funny. Cheri not outspoken? Have you been under a rock, or what?

I would stop short of giving W an "F" and saying he's the worst. Because, well, there's always Jimmy "the Smile" Carter. But, he was far from good. He kept us safe AFTER 9/11. Well, isn't that what the Pres is supposed to do? I do think when judging him, consideration should be given to the effect 9/11 had. It was a crappy hand to be dealt.

[flattop40]

I noticed you dropped the "present day comedian" thing from your sig. Is this an example of the reason why? Clearly, anything but funny. Cheri not outspoken? Have you been under a rock, or what?

I would stop short of giving W an "F" and saying he's the worst. Because, well, there's always Jimmy "the Smile" Carter. But, he was far from good. He kept us safe AFTER 9/11. Well, isn't that what the Pres is supposed to do? I do think when judging him, consideration should be given to the effect 9/11 had. It was a crappy hand to be dealt.

Hmmmmm I make a joke and I get 2 responses lambasting me and a warning from a moderator. Yet you can go thru other threads and people joke and make little harmless digs at one another and nothing is said. Did I miss the memo that says you can't make a joke in the "soap box" threads?

Sounds like typical liberals to me. Do as I say but not as I do. Whats good for the goose is NOT good for the gander.

I think Cheri knew I was joking. I even put a little wink sign for those of you who are a little slow.

Yeah I changed my sig. Glad to see people take notice of those things.

"He kept us safe AFTER 9/11. Well, isn't that what the Pres is supposed to do?" So you are saying he DID his job and did it well? We had NO attacks afterwards. Not against ships in the Med. No attacks against other buildings like the original trade center attacks. DID you even read my original post in this thread?

Cheri if I offended you I am truly sorry and I am glad to see you have people who will come to defense.

To the rest of you, as someones signiture says, STOP TRYING SO HARD TO BE OFFENDED!

[BillChaffey]

Grade for G.W. Bush. As in the Bobby Bare song "Numbers" "since there ain't no zeros I give you a one"