[drivingmecrazy]

Fear and Hate mongers, always the tactic !

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by chefdennis

Well Turtle, as i said you can believe whatever it is that you do, and I'll believe what i feel works for me and for me, the POS obama is a worthless muslum.

Well, I prefer to believe in the truth rather than continuing to believe in a lie, regardless of how badly I would like the lie to be true. If something might be true, but also might not be true, I see little point in actually believing one way or the other until the truth can be determined. Or at the very least, be prepared to change my beliefs based on new information. To do otherwise is to engage in fantasy, and if you try and pass it off as the truth, merely because you wish it to be true, that's known as being delusional.

While I do agree with you in that Obama is a POS, and worthless, the fact is he ain't a Muslim. Again, I'd need your own personal definition of what you think a Muslim is, though.

The article focuses on his childhood, that he was raised in Islam, so therefore he's a Muslim today. Have you ever done anything in your childhood, or believed in anything when you were a child, that you no longer do or believe in as an adult? As a child, we all are limited to our own sphere of experiences and influences and are in no position to make informed decisions about much of anything.

I was raised in the Baptist church. I was, for all intents and purposes, very devout. Does that make me a Baptist today?

Also during my youth, I also attended, for long stretches of time, Presbyterian and Methodist churches. What does that make me now?

In junior and senior high school I had many Catholic friends, and on several occasions I attended Catholic church with them. What am I now?

As an adult, I have attended, on more than one occasions, a Jewish synagogue with some Jewish friends. As an adult, mind you. A decision made as an informed adult. Does that make me a Jew, now?

I can recite the Shahada (the Muslim declaration of faith) word for word, and if I put my mind to it with a little practice, probably with an Arabic accent. Does that make me a Muslim?

My ancestors were English, German, and Cherokee. What am I?

The word Islam is derived from the Arabic verb Aslama, which means "to accept, to surrender, to submit". To be a Muslim means to surrender and submit to God (Allah), and Muslims must demonstrate this submission by worshiping him, following his commands.

Obama isn't a Muslim, anymore than he's a Christian. He's neither. He's an opportunist who will use both Islam and Christianity, and whatever else is out there, to his own benefit.

Here is just one of many areticles that i can put here just as you can put articles up that sayes he isn't...

Well, first of all, articles of opinion aren't fact, they're articles of opinion, especially those that are written and skewed purposely for an agenda, for a specific cause. If you read an article that supports your beliefs, then it's true in your mind, and you can easily dismiss any and all articles that disagree with your beliefs as not being true, even if they are, in fact, true.

The article in question was penned by Reuven Koret, a rather well known radical Jew, essentially the flip-side of the 'Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40' coin. He's a Jewish make extremist, and most definitely has his own agenda. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that. The Jews certainly have the right and reason to have such a wary and suspicious agenda.

Incidentally, are you aware that his Web site is a well know malicious site, with (at last count) 56 of the 186 pages on the site forcing downloads and installs of malicious scripting exploits, with the scripts being hosted on his site, as well as his hosting domains of ppexe.com and douhuqn.cn? Most installations of Firefox (assuming the correct security options are checked) won't even display the page at all (MSIE, on the other hand, will let you go there and be scripted to Koret's amusement).

as well has his own words with him saying he isn't, he is also a liar.

Well, let's see. There is no evidence that he's a Muslim, other than what people believe, and there are many articles out there that say he isn't a Muslim, and even you will admit that Obama himself has said he isn't a Muslim with his own words. Yet, you say he's lying and that he is a Muslim. Just out of curiosity, what color is a STOP sign?

Oh and this is NOT from the a,erican media.

No, it's from the Tel Aviv desk of a Jewish extremist. I see no conflict of interest in being fair and impartial there.

Is Barack Obama a Muslim wolf in Christian wool?

By Reuven Koret
March 27, 2008
israelinsider: politics: Is Barack Obama a Muslim wolf in Christian wool?

<article snipped>

Yea i know that its just more B/S from the media, but hey, its enough along with the 100's of other article for me, as well a approx 205 of the registered democrats that think he is a muslum too.

So, regardless, if a lot of people believe it, then it must be true. Right?

Truth does not change because it is or is not believed by a majority of the people. - Giordano Bruno

As for the " bad nasty christains", get over it, we all know the hope stood with hitler during the war and prayed to protect the german troops and all of the old crap that went on in gods name during the "christain crusades, its old news.

Get over it. Too funny. Yes, the Crusades is old news. And I agree, the Pope praying for German troops was truly a horrific event. Oh, the humanity. And remember in the Crusades when the Christians went around bombing all those abortion clinics and assassinating the doctors and nurses who worked there? I'm glad that doesn't happen anymore.

But the garbage muslums are doing it today and have been since 632 when after 630 which was 2 yrs before Muhammad death that he set up a "protection tax" and set about withe the islamic crusades, and islam and the scum sucking muslums have been at it since without letting up.

I'm sorry, but the Crusades is old news, yet the year 632 is somehow current events? Muslims, Jews and Christians have been at it for a long time, and it still continues today. Muslims have no monopoly on being garbage.

Muslims believe that everything that happens in the world, good or evil, is preordained by God, that God has complete knowledge and control of everything that happens. Muslims account for Free Will as people have the free will to choose good or evil and are thus responsible for their own actions. But, of course, if you do something bad, like, say, blow up a building and kill thousands of innocent people, well, that's not you doing evil, that's a predestination of God, 'cause he already knew it was gonna happen, and you are merely fulfilling what was already preordained. You are literally on a mission from God. How scary is that? Then again, like I said, Muslims aren't the only ones to do bad things in the name of God. That happens all the time. Being able to justify pretty much anything you want to do as "God told me to do it" is a pretty scary thing all the way around.

Make no mistake, I have no love lost for Islam or for Muslims. The Crusades, the First Crusade (1096) in particular, were invented in the first place in order to conquer Jerusalem and the Holy Land, and in the process free the resident western christians from Islamic rule. But if you take a close look at the history of Islam, of the Crusades, and of Christianity, you'll see that both Christianity and Islam have historically both been spread in the same manner, and both continue in the same manner today. The only differences are within the different denominations, both within Christianity and within Islam. Some denominations get along and play well with others, some denominations, not so much.

Now, having said all that, if you truly believe that Obama is a Muslim, then consider this. Muslims believe that all people, each and every person, are born Muslim. They are Muslim at birth, and then are converted to some other religion by their parents. But once a Muslim always a Muslim, and they only have to be brought back from the brainwashing to their senses. In that context, yeah, Obama is a Muslim. Then again, so are you.

Pick a religion. Doesn't matter which one, it works for all of them...
Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

[cheri1122]

Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

Bravo, Turtle. Though I've never seen the quote, it is a succinct expression of my beliefs.
Whether Christian, Muslim, or Jew, religion inspires fanaticism in certain unstable (malleable?) minds, and fanaticism is a danger to everyone.

[chefdennis]

religion inspires fanaticism in certain unstable (malleable?) minds, and fanaticism is a danger to everyone.

That explains muslums to a "T", and obama is a card carrying muslum.........

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by chefdennis

That explains muslums to a "T", and obama is a card carrying muslum.........

And it appears that it explains you to a "T" as well. For, not all Muslims are fanatics, nor are all Christians, nor all Jews, yet some of them most definitely are. You've just lumped all Muslims into the fanatical category with the above statement, and that's fanatical, not to mention reckless. The "card carrying muslum" statement means something else entirely, even more disturbing. You're coming off not as merely a fanatic, but a stone-cold nut.

OK, you state that he's not only a Muslim, but a card carrying Muslim. Prove it. Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you can prove.

Even the article that you posted, the one that made a valiant effort to prove that (a) he was a Muslim as a child and therefore (b) he is now, failed miserably, pathetically, at even proving that he was a Muslim as a child. Countless times the author made leaps from "what would have happened" in certain situations when Obama was a child, to the confident assumption and ascertion that what would have happened (in the Middle East) actually did happen (in Indonesia), all without any evidence whatsoever. It was actually laughable. I wanted to read what did happen, rather than what would or should have happened. But it wasn't there. Same as I want to read your proof that he's a Muslim, rather than what you believe. I mean, hey, if you can prove he's a Muslim, card-carrying or not, you will single-handedly make an impact on this election that will forever alter the landscape of US and world politics. It'll be huge.

[pelicn]

Obama isn't a Muslim, anymore than he's a Christian. He's neither. He's an opportunist who will use both Islam and Christianity, and whatever else is out there, to his own benefit.

Well said Turtle!!

[Broompilot]

Obama has great sense, just a terrible speaker, umm hmmm well, well, I mean and than gets to the point and changes topics halfway in a sentence. Of course with out the aide of those cards.

17 thats when I took Speech in High School, lady was strict and got our Respect and actually was one of the best classes I had in H.S. Too bad she was not also not a Writing and Spelling Teacher.

[theBeemer]

Hey Turtle.

Did I mention to you I like your writing style?


Thank you for proving the points in your way I was
trying to make with some of the folks here.
Not every Muslim is a terrorist, nor is every Jew a
Shake down artist or terrorist. Not every Christain
is a flake or fake. I have had times working for Christans
gotten screwed out of a sizable amount of coins ,have
them smile and say were not perfect just forgiven..Worked
a jewish fellow one time and he explained nothing personal just
business come over for dinner later.. Went over for
dinner and it wasn't personal. So when the jewish fellow
screwed me out of coins at least I got dinner,(actually quite good) where as the Christain keeped smiling..Can't lump
all the same

[chefdennis]

Turtle wrote:

And it appears that it explains you to a "T" as well.

No Turtle, you have missed it totally, when it comes to muslums, i am a racist, plain and simple, and have no problem with that at all. I also have no problem with the elimination of ALL of them for our country!! I'll stop there as to not get the thread closed.

Yo can believe what you want and i have no dilusions that you will change your mind, just as you aren't about to change mine, that fact is that from birth, muslums are raise according to their religous teachings to either convert of kill the infidels, personally, the idea of killing ALL of them appeals more to me, then converting to islum or dying at their hand.....

As to him being a card carrying muslum, its simply is a term of speech but within the a few weeks his "vaulted" birth registration" (not the fake birth certificate that he has produced with the fake seal added after the fact) will be given to a PA court as proof that he was born muslum, as stated on it.

Again, you coddle them, me i am for the total eliminatation of them. If that bothers you, don't bother with my threads on the topic.

PS: I also don't have a problem with the internment camps we used during WW2 either...

And before you figure I am just an uneducated redneck, my degree is from the U of Michigan. It took me 6 yrs, but I work to pay for most of it myself....

[Tennesseahawk]

No, not all Muslims are terrorists or extremists. Would you want to take the chance your Commander in Chief is or is not? Whatever Osama is, he's trying to hide it. That point is obvious.

[drivingmecrazy]

I agree with Turtle ! If he was hiding being a muslim the republicans would have proved it in a heartbeat. I like him very much. I believe it depends on how you grew up in this country. I grew up in a military family, we lived on base for much of my early years- very diverse communities. Respected rank and character.
I don't find it hard to believe that a black american family can love this country any less than my white american family. But I guess some people do.
As for Sarah Palin: I was watching on the news about her teenage daughter being pregnant, and then a comment from Obama came on about how we should leave families out of the debates. That is a pretty stand up guy. But I don't have to be quiet about it. Here is a women who believes that abstenance only should be taught in our schools, that has been proven time and time again- THAT IT DOES NOT WORK! Proven in her family too. I got to ask myself as a women... why would a VP nominee even accept the nomination for the job with so much going on as a MOM? Young down syndrom child needs more attention, love, time- teenage pregnant daughter who's boyfriends myspace page is a nightmare!!!!!!!! Says he is not wanting any children, defines himself as a redneck from hell, full of curse words, even says " If you *!*! with me I will shoot you." Now would you really want your daughter to marry that? That is the future VPs son in law !!!!!!!!! I dont want that in my white house! It's a mess, what was MCCain thinking ?????

[layoutshooter]

The news will blow everything out of perportion, families should be left out. Abstanace does work!!! The ONLY person I am aware of who got pregnate without the benifit of sperm was Mary!!! Keep in your pants is 100% effective. It is the attitude of todays "do it if it feels good" mentality that is the problem. The nothing is "wrong" is the problem. The "YOU can't judge others" people are the problem. I can judge others. I know right from wrong. Period. Kill the baby instead of owning up the the "adult consiquences" of an "adult" action. No one teaches responsibility these days. They all scream about thier "rights" (real or imaginary) but NEVER once talk about the responsibilty need to properly excercise thier rights. As in the Stand UP guy Osama, kill them babies, Obama. A human baby is a "punishment" if his daughter makes a "mistake". To me a stand up guy is McCain, when he refused to take an early release from the prison camp because the would not let his fellow Americans out. All who think Osama Obama would put his like on the line for anyone or anything please stand on your head!!! I am sick of all the words, ONLY actions count. Tell me one thing of REAL SUBSTANCE that Obama has done. Hell, he's never even had a job as an adult. Layoutshooter

[Tennesseahawk]

That's ok, Crazy. You don't have to make up excuses of why you're voting for Obama. We understand.

Obama also said he wouldn't play the race card; yet he's played it like a symphony. That's fine that HE'LL leave family out of it; but my guess is his cronies will treat it as fair game. Also, HIS wife is in the spotlight, yet we're supposed to ignore her? Same with Chelsea during Hillary's run.

And you talk about her daughter's boyfriend like he'll be some kind of plague on the White House, yet I'd bet my arse you voted for Bill Jefferson Clinton even AFTER word of Jennifer Flowers came out. Very simple... daughter will be 18 around the time her mom takes office as VP, and sent off to college somewhere. She will be 22, and hopefully much more mature, when her mom takes office as President.

Funny how ppl on the other side basically label their situation as one that doesn't deserve the White House. Just throw a welfare check. That should take care of everything. You wanted a REAL 'everyday' American in the White House? Well... everyday Americans come with everyday problems. In fact, I commend Sarah for being able to run a state government AND be able to tackle the job of MOM to a teenager. She gets BIG kudos from me!

Still don't know if I'm voting that way yet, tho.

[Turtle]

Well, Chef, you may have a degree from the University of Michigan, but that doesn't mean you are an educated man regarding this topic. Unless, of course, your degree is in Middle Eastern Studies, or something. Case in point:

"that fact is that from birth, muslums are raise according to their religous teachings to either convert [or] kill the infidels,"

That's simply not true for the vast majority of Muslims. Just like the Bible, the Qur'an (or the Koran, if you like) can be interpreted in many ways. And just like with Christianity and Judaism, Islam has people who do nothing but study and interpret the Qur'an. Some do it well, some don't. Some will interpret it in a certain way specifically for political or personal power reasons. Islam, Judaism and Christianity all have a long and rich history of religious interpretations that smack of political foundations, of expansions and dominations. Onward Christian Soldiers. Follow the money, follow the power.

If you think about it for a minute, if all Muslims are on a mission from God to kill all non-Muslims and rule the world under Islamic rule, then why, after nearly 1400 years, are there any non-Muslims running around the planet? For that matter, considering the population imbalance there, why are there any non-Muslims in Dearborn, not to mention the Middle East in general? Are they all that inept at killing infidels? If every Muslim would just kill one non-Muslim a week, they'd have total control in no time. A few months at most. What's the problem? Git r dun.

Incidentally, infidels and non-believers, which is what the Qur'an talks about, is not the same as non-Muslims. People Of The Book, "The Book" being the Bible, are not a part of the non-believers and infidels crowd. People Of The Book are Christians and Jews, and they believe in the same God as the Muslims believe in. Yep, same God, exactly. The problems come when his teachings are misinterpreted, and that happens in all three religions.

Have you ever read the Qur'an? If you choose to be a racist in this regard, I would think that you would have wanted to read it, to educate yourself, in order to be better prepared in your battles with them. If for nothing else, to be able to use it against them and to be able to better predict their reactions. In any case, I strongly recommend reading it. Just like many sections of the Bible, the sections of the Qur'an that talk of killing infidels, if taken out of context (which the extremists routinely do), means just that - convert them or kill them. However, taken in context, the killings are to only take place under very strict guidlines, primarily in self-defense, mainly in a time of war when Islam is being attacked. The Bible is not unlike the Qur'an in that respect. The Bible shows justification for killing, but not murder, same as the Qur'an.

"Again, you coddle them, me i am for the total eliminatation of them."

Coddle them? Me? Hardly. The extremists, the ones who want to do me and others harm, I'm right there with ya. It's self-defense, plain and simple. But, where we drift apart is I refuse to lump non-extremists in with the extremists.

I do support profiling, though. I don't know where this crap came about that profiling is racist. It's not. Even racial profiling isn't racist. It's profilist. It might just so happen that the profile comprises a certain race, but that doesn't make the profile itself racist. Racial profiling would be racist if it was implemented in a racist manner, meaning that you were profiling a certain race solely becaue of their race, and not because their race fit into a certain profile. If you're looking for some bad people, and they all happen to be between six feet and six feet three inches tall, then the profile is people between 6' and 6'3" and you're not going to concentrate on people who are well under 6 feet tall. If you're looking for some bad people, and they all happen to be of Middle Eastern descent, it would make little or no sense to waste time messing with blue eyed blonds from Sweden. And if you're looking for bad people, and they all happen to be Muslim, you'd better concentrate on anyone who is a Muslim, and cull out the bad from the good. All that profiling does is narrow down the search. Period. You eliminate that which is irrelevant with a profile. And then within that profile you eliminate further that which doesn't apply. It's that simple. Nothing racist about it.

As for the Internment Camps of WWII, in the context of the time and place, it made perfect sense. It was profiling that was logical. It's unfortunate that it had to be done, but it was logical and prudent. Better to be safe than stupid. As far as Muslims in the US are concerned, something should be done, but Internment isn't logical nor prudent, and following the methods of Dominic Guzman ("Kill them all. God will know his own.") wouldn't exactly be logical or prudent, either, although I'm sure you would approve.

Dominic Guzman is the one who came up with the Three Degrees of torture. First Degree, thumbscrews. Second Degree, bastinado (foot whipping). Third Degree, the burning of the flesh under the armpits (and is where we get the term Third Degree Burns from).
Maybe we should just beat it out of them.

[layoutshooter]

I don't know about some American's but I am begining to wonder if I did when I was younger. When I read some of the posts that I read in here I wonder if the 20 years I spent defending these people was worth it. To tell you the truth, many of you can go P*ss up a rope. You were just not worth the effort. Sorry if I offend the real people the rest, too darn bad. Layoutshooter