[geo]

also there are a lot of hazmat that require a air tight bulkhead to carried in any amount as if you inhale cause all kinds of problems

i just renewed my lic and took hazmad off the lic
and will not carried any amount of hazmad
as cost of endorement didn't add up for the cost of it
also why should i have to be finger printed and back ground
feel insluted by having to do this
so protesting by getting it on my lic

[flattop40]

Originally Posted by Turtle

If you have a HAZMAT endorsement, then you should know the rules already. If you don't have a HAZMAT endorsement, then you can't haul HAZMAT, anyway.

HAZMAT is defined as hazardous materials that must be placarded. If it's HAZMAT, but not in a placardable amount, it ain't HAZMAT, and you can haul it without a HAZMAT endorsement. There are some materials that are placardable only if they weight 1001 pounds or more, but at 1000 pounds or less, it's not placardable, and thus is not HAZMAT, and therefore you don't need a HAZMAT endorsement to haul it.

So, to answer your original question of, "For a sprinter/cargo van what are the rules and regs for hauling haz-mat", the answer is, the rules are exactly the same for Sprinters and vans as for any other vehicle, except that if you aren't placarded as a Sprinter or van (or station wagon or Prius), you aren't a commercial vehicle. If you're placarded, you're a commercial vehicle (and are instantly DOT regulated), and you must comply with all the rules and regulations of a commercial motor vehicle, including scaling and logging (and actually observing the correct HOS regulations).

I use the term myself, but there is actually no such thing as non-placardable HAZMAT, as in the case of the single 55 gallon drum of paint. I call it that, because it refers to material that is not HAZMAT, but would be if it were 1001 pounds or more. Now, there are HAZMAT materials that are placardable in any amount at all, even one pound, or one ounce (like plutonium, for example), but for the most part, few of those things can be carried in a van in the first place, because they must be physically separated from the driver (inhilation hazards, explosives, some poisons, etc.).

As for your friend, if he had been pulled over and was actually carrying placardable HAZMAT, he'd be in deep doo-doo, and so would his carrier. If you pick up something that has HAZMAT labels on the freight, check the BOL to see how it's labeled, and the weight. For example, a skid of 5 gallon buckets of HAZMAT paint will have HAZMAT placard on each bucket, but that in and of itself doesn't make it HAZMAT. If it weighs more than 1000 pounds it is, but if it's 1000 pounds or less it's not, and it should say whether it is or not on the BOL. If it's material that isn't placardable at less then 1001 pounds, and the BOL has the HAZMAT column checked, make 'em change the BOL to reflect the non-HAZMAT nature of the freight.

Not sure what "Level 3" is, it all depends on the UN# of the material itself. There's PG III (Packing Group), and there's Class 3, which is the flammable liquids. His 6 drums were probably Class 3 Flammable Liquids, and if so were almost certainly more than 1001 pounds. Most paint drums are in the 500-700 pound per-drum range, but some of the base paints and polymers are half that. But most of the bases and polymers aren't usually regulated, regardless of the amount (except for a reportable quantity in case of a spill).

In vans, most often the confusion over HAZMAT or not comes with paints, solvents and things like batteries (of which RLENT has a great story he can relate).

I highly recommend getting a HAZMAT endorsement, even if you never haul HAZMAT, or at least studying that part of the Driver's License Manual in your state and then taking the practice tests at Commercial Drivers' License (CDL) Sample Tests (an awesome resource). That way you'll know what you're dealing with, you'll know what's in the truck next to you on the highway, you'll know what to do and what not to do in case of an emergency, you'll know how to read the HMCP, you'll know lots of things.

Thank you turtle, this post has been most helpful. So, if I read this correctly the 2 times I hauled the paint I was NOT in violation because both times the weight was something like 600#, hence the under 1000# and then not considered HAZMAT. Now my friend on the other hand got lucky. I won't mention what company he is leased to as they are an advertiser on this site.

As to Cheri I believe an apology is in order for your defamation of yours truely and the company I lease to. The saftey dept. obviously has the load planners and customer service reps trained and have never offered me a load that I could not take. Your constant targeting of my posts has got to stop. I would not consider a post by Turtle as "hearsay". I respect his knowledge in the industry. Do you? Oh, and please don't PM me anymore and call me names like

you childish and petulant little weasel.

There is an old saying "people in glass houses shouldn't get naked because the world will see who you truely are" Cheri you are naked.

[LDB]

OK, this thread too has far too much direct personal messaging of an unacceptable nature. It's apparently time to stop reading posts by some members and definitely stop replying to posts by some members unless mature civility can be restored. I'm really exhausted from all the moderator work recently. I trust there will be no need for any more and I can go back to just reading again.

[aileron]

Originally Posted by Turtle

If it's material that isn't placardable at less then 1001 pounds, and the BOL has the HAZMAT column checked, make 'em change the BOL to reflect the non-HAZMAT nature of the freight.

Good luck with making them change anything. If it's got an X in the appropriate column on the BOL, it is going to stay that way.

One time I had to pick up one drum of some chemical, and the proper shipping name was misspelled according to the hazmat book. I could not get them to change it even after showing them in the book. They started getting nasty...

[HotFr8Recruiter]

Flattop;

Turtle did give some excellent "refresher" hazmat training in his post. His words are correct. Couple of additional pointers for you. Look at the Bills of Lading on each and every shipment you haul. Hazmat bills of lading must list the hazardous materials first. Many Hazmat BOL's will also have a Red border to them and may also contain a "column" that is checked if the commodity is hazardous.

He is also correct that some materials are considered "Hazardous" when in quantities greater 1,000 pounds by themselves, or in combination with other hazardous materials, and these loads would require placcards. Keep in mind that some materials, such as Class A and B Explosives, Radioactive and some of the Toxic (by inhalation), are placcardable, regardless of quantity.

You may encounter "ORM-D" products. ORM-D products are materials normally considered hazardous, but because they are packaged in smaller containers, and intended for consumers to purchase off the shelf at stores, they are not required to be placcarded - regardless of the quantity. In other words you could leagally haul 3,500 pounds of ORM-D products in your van without placcarding.

As for hauling any amount of hazmat in a cargo van - I have never been a proponent of that. Regardless of how great of a bulkhead you think you have in a van, there is NO protection for you, the driver, from the hazardous materials should a spill or leak occur. Think of how many times you have hauled non-hazardous products, such as "coated" or "treated" auto parts and have become sensitive to the smells from the product in your van.

Anytime you are unsure if loads are hazmat, you should contact the Safety Department at your Carrier. There is not one of the major Expedite companies that DOES NOT have a top-notch Safety Director.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,
HotFr8Recruiter
aka John Mueller, CDS
Safety Director - Premium Transportation Logistics

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by aileron

Good luck with making them change anything. If it's got an X in the appropriate column on the BOL, it is going to stay that way.

I've had it happen maybe half a dozen times. Some of these shippers, 99% of their stuff is HAZMAT, so when a less-than-1001 pound shipment goes out it's rarity, and the SOP of marking the HAZMAT column doesn't apply. But the FMSCA rules are very specific with regard to shipper's responsibilities, and if the paperwork isn't right, I'll refuse the load. The Shipper's Certificate on the papers will take some of the heat off the driver if thigs aren't correct, but not enough to accept a load with incorrect paperwork.

One time I had to pick up one drum of some chemical, and the proper shipping name was misspelled according to the hazmat book. I could not get them to change it even after showing them in the book. They started getting nasty...

If it was just a typo and it didn't spell a different actual chemical, and as long as the correct UN# was there, it wouldn't be a problem, especially with that Shipper Certificate down there. But I'd point to the Certificate and say, "Are you sure you want to go with this?"

[greg334]

This is really interesting.

I won't write all of this but here is the short story. I am responsible for that shipment on the road. If I have an accident and my paper work is sloppy, than I will end up with the problems, not the shipper, not the carrier. Even though the shipper will get p*ssed off, and I have had a couple of them get really mad, I don't move the truck with a Hazmat load on it unless their paper work is perfect and they sign my contact info.

I can't afford the cost of messing up and you can't either. Just the clean up of one Hazmat spill near where my truck vacations cost the driver and carrier more than a million dollars and that was just the clean up company's work, the state charge the carrier somethign like $125k for tying up the emerguency vehicles and closing down the road and the City of Detroit has yet billed the carrier for the extra work from what went down in the drains.

[Moot]

Originally Posted by cheri1122

Flattop: either you are deliberately antagonizing me, or you're too stupid to be driving a CMV.
Which is it?

Looks like you found someone to sponsor in the Special Olympics Driving Championships this summer.

[RLENT]

Originally Posted by highway star

On a matter this important wouldn't you rather have the info come from "the" source, than from forum members who may, or may not, know what they're talking about?

Nah ..... rumor, gossip, and hearsay are way, way better.

[Crazynuff]

O.K. , here's what you need to know . How to Comply with Federal HM Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration . Take particular note of the training requirements . A hazmat endorsement alone does NOT qualify you to transport hazmat . Additional training by the carrier is required . This training must be renewed every 3 years and you are required to carry a card showing you have current training . I have been asked for this card during inspections .

[redytrk]

Originally Posted by flattop40

My saftey department is top of the line, can't say for sure about my friends, but during orientation the CV/SPR's were not required to sit thru the Haz-mat part. There must be a reason for this. Is there a bite and if so how bad?

The only reason I can think of for a safety department to not require C/SPR`s to attend Hazmat is that the do not plan to put HM on a van. For this reason they may not require a HM endorsement on a CDL. Unfortunately not all dispatchers know or care. After all its not their butts that will fry for the illegal load.

I can`t see any where that Flattop or his friend have the endorsement's.

[BigRed32771]

Originally Posted by HotFr8Recruiter

Flattop;

He is also correct that some materials are considered "Hazardous" when in quantities greater 1,000 pounds by themselves, or in combination with other hazardous materials, and these loads would require placcards. Keep in mind that some materials, such as Class A and B Explosives, Radioactive and some of the Toxic (by inhalation), are placcardable, regardless of quantity.

HotFr8Recruiter
aka John Mueller, CDS
Safety Director - Premium Transportation Logistics

Just a note regarding radioactive:
There is an odd category of radioactive called "DOT Exempt." It is an amount or radioactivity level that falls below the DOT's definition of what constitutes radioactive and above what the regulatory agency for nuclear power, etc. (sorry for the senior moment, can't remember the specific agency name...DOE maybe? NRA? Can't remember...) calls radioactive. It seems the two agencies don't agree on what constitutes regulatable or covered materials. It is a small difference, but it exists.

When transporting DOT Exempt Radmat there is a form or form letter that should accompany the paperwork which explains that the material is Exempt from DOT Hazmat. The trick is usually trying to explain this to a dispatcher who wants to do a hazmat checkout and doesn't understand that though technically radioactive the shipper hasn't done hazmat paperwork on it. I had to hand the phone to the shipper to explain it to a dispatcher the one time I ran into this type of material.

Doug Simmons
FDCC - DR4284 (a.k.a. "the John Deer truck)

[aristotle]

Study for and obtain the HazMat endorsement. Why jeopardize your driving career or the safety of the motoring public?

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by aristotle

Study for and obtain the HazMat endorsement. Why jeopardize your driving career or the safety of the motoring public?

Exactly. Or at least study for it. There are some shippers who require a HAZMAT endorsement for all shipments, HAZMAT or not. Many shippers (and some authorities) respect a HAZMAT endorsement on a CDL, as it shows, to at lease some degree, that you actually do know your аss from a hole in the ground and that you take your job seriously, especially those in a cargo van (I've been told that by two shippers and one border guard).

Some carriers don't require a CDL at all. Some require a CDL, but don't require a HAZMAT endorsement. Van and Sprinter drivers who opt for a Class C CDL will have to have an endorsement of some kind, either HAZMAT or Passenger, since there is no such thing as an endorsement-free Class C CDL. You have to take the CDL written test to get it, but a Class C CDL is essentially a Class D operator license with an endorsement. Some van drivers merely opt for a Class B license free of endorsements.

Regardless of whether you don't have a HAZMAT endorsement, it would behoove you to become familiar with HAZMAT, which is why I push that people at the very least study the HAZMAT section in the CDL manual and take the practice tests. This is your job, and you need to know how to do it, even if you never haul HAZMAT.

Panther, for example, like many other carriers, won't put placardable HAZMAT on a van. They won't do this because van drivers are mostly morons who don't know their job, the rules and regulations, and when they're placarded they have to act and think like an actual professional driver (or so the theory goes). The turnover rate for van drivers is obscene, so there's little reason to waste time in teaching van drivers the rules regarding HAZMAT, logging and scaling, for just a handful of loads a year. It's easier just to put all placardable HAZMAT on a truck that already logs and scales every day.

CSR's, load planners, Safety and dispatchers all try to ensure that placardable HAZMAT not be booked on cargo vans in these cases. However, have you ever received a Load Offer that turned out to be be very different with regards to number of pieces and weight? I've had it happen several times where, say, the load offer was 1-piece, 500 pounds, and I get to the shipper and it's 1 skid of 4 drums of 2000 pounds of placardable HAZMAT. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of van drivers would just load and go and never give it a second thought, that, or think about it, but wouldn't want to give up the loaded miles and they'd run it anyway figuring nothing would happen. <snort>

I've also been recently dispatched to pick up what turned out to be 600 pounds of PG I aluminum powder, which is a nasty 4.3 Dangerous When Wet, always-placardable HAZMAT material, that can explode if it gets a little bit wet (used to make flash powder, fireworks, pyrotechnics, cherry bombs, stun grenades etc.), and I had the shipper insisting that if it was less than 1001 pounds it was fine to ship in an unplacarded cargo van. Table 1 from the HAZMAT book says otherwise. If you don't know your job, you may be ignorant or stupid enough to just load 'er up and drive off.

Even if you don't have a HAZMAT endorsement and/or you never haul HAZMAT, you'd better know the difference between HAZMAT and not-HAZMAT. That's your job.

[cheri1122]

BTW: the "old saying" [mis]quoted is: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't THROW STONES." The 'naked' part exists only in your mind.