Introduction and in need of help

**ATeam** · 03-02-2009, 10:22 AM

As a long-time OOIDA supporter and lifetime member, I am embarrassed to admit that I did not know about sponsored memberships until moose mentioned them. Saturnista, a sponsored membership is now waiting for you at OOIDA. Please check your private messages for contact information.

People have sometimes talked about OOIDA as not worth joining. There are 160,000 members who disagree. Diane and I support OOIDA partly because of what OOIDA does for us but more because of what OOIDA does for drivers in need of help and useful information. This thread is a perfect illustration.

Seeing the need, Diane and I have purchased four sponsored memberships, one for Saturnista and three to be used as OOIDA office people see fit. We encourage others to support OOIDA and their fellow drivers in this fashion. The contribution is a "two-for-one." New membership dollars support both OOIDA and the drivers who can make good use of OOIDA's resources and support.

**VBobby** · 03-02-2009, 10:28 AM

Saturnista -
I went to a company school as well. Don’t listen to all of the people putting down USA Truck. He had a plan when he went to their training and it was not a bad plan considering the circumstances. He has already invested a lot of time into his training and is about to get the cdl class a that he set out to get. That is one goal accomplished. Well done.

For that to be worth the while he needs to add one year of otr experience to it. This should be his next goal. USA truck and all the others are using their training program as a revenue source. Not only do they get people on the hook with a contract but they get some government cash for each student who gets their cdl class a. Still, they did offer an opportunity and it still stands. If he has been unemployed for as long as he has then why not do something part time like pizza delivery or something until he gets called in?
I suggest that he lives up to his side of the contract and drive for USA Truck for at least one year. Being a company driver is like being an indentured servant. He should just do his time and live up to his side of the contract. Don’t complain and be the best driver he can be. Take the year to make some money, use their equipment to perfect his driving skills and during that time develop his plan for the next five years.
If he has been unemployed, has bad credit and now skips out on his contractual commitment, it will send all the wrong signals to anyone that he may be asking to sign him on.

Bob

**charlee** · 03-02-2009, 10:32 AM

At this point although it sounds harsh, he could choose to intentionally fail the driving test 3x to be released from the school "debt". This "company store" syndrome that the large carriers have is ridiculous. He only needs a class b to drive a straight truck and can get hired with no experience. He needs a class a to drive a tractor, but with Panther at least he needs a minimum of 6 months verifiable OTR experience to even get into a tractor. Getting a class b is very easy and no need for a school to make it happen. The other hurdles are finding a good person to run team with. I would choose to come out of this without any debt obligation if anyway possible.

-charlee

**pjjjjj** · 03-02-2009, 11:35 AM

Interesting points of view from you guys!

I just wondered.. that obligation to work for USA for one year, does that year period begin as soon as the cdl is obtained, or as soon as the student gets his first load, and is it a calendar year, or what they deem to be a year's worth of driving time?

That was very generous of you ATeam, especially during these slower times when more may not feel able to come up with that extra $25.

**pelicn** · 03-02-2009, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Saturnista

Cheri - the school will only release him if he does not pass after X number of tries.

This doesn't sound right. If he doesn't pass, that isn't USA's fault, so why would USA release him without making him pay for the cost of the school?

If it is right, I think I'd do as Charlee suggested, if he never plans on driving a tractor trailer.

Have you considered "teaming" with your husband?

**Mdbtyhtr** · 03-02-2009, 12:51 PM

Just an outsider's opinion, as Phil said (and his wife is an attorney)you can't speak to the particulars of a contract without first reading it. Secondly, those contracts are written for the benefit of them, not you (or your husband). I have to believe that there is a significant revenue from the schools alone, that new drivers are paid sub-par during that first year of obligation, that the inconvenience incurred and down time is designed to make you quit so they can put you in default on the contract, that a negative DAC report is your motivation to pay etc.

My question would be this, if you worked for them for six months, would that not reduce your obligation by half? Would the courts rule that this is actually a "Bait and Switch" fraud scheme if presented properly? Would their failure to provide work, provided you have met all of your obligations of passing the classes, tests and availability to work, prove a breach of the contract on their part and release you of all responsibilities?

I am sure an attorney would review this for far less then the potential $6k debt incurred, and might be well worth it for you and others. Be glad you did not get involved in a lease purchase as I have read that these are just as bad, praying on people who have few options.

Best of luck,

Scott

**pjjjjj** · 03-02-2009, 01:47 PM

I don't know what ended up happening with this situation, and altho it's not the same, might be worth contacting the member to see how it all turned out.

http://www.expeditersonline.com/foru...tml#post252913

**Saturnista** · 03-02-2009, 02:25 PM

Wow, I step away from the computer for a few hours and came back to find a lot of good advice and help!

Ateam - you're amazing. You have really brightened my day. Your generosity came on the heels of some other good news so I've definitely got a smile on my face now.

The other good news is that my husband did pass the state CDL test with flying colors and as of tomorrow (the DMV office is closed Monday even though the testing center is open) will be the proud holder of an Indiana Class A CDL. Yes, we do live in Ohio, but one of the requirements for the school was that he had to hold an Indiana CDL permit, so he had to switch his license over. After he gets the IN license tomorrow, he can switch it back to his home state at his leisure.

I'll try to answer as many questions or concerns as I can in one post though if I miss you, it's not cause I'm ignoring you! Just a lot of information to digest. I've been reading all the posts to my husband over the phone this morning and getting his feedback.

I'm not 100% sure when the contract with USA starts but we both believe it is with the first day of training. There was someone who had a concern about still owing if the school fails you - I look at it like college. If you fail the class, you still have to pay for it in college, so I don't see how it'd be any different for CDL training. You've used the instructors' time and resources, and those cost money. So yes, if the school fails you out, you do owe the company the money since they fronted your tuition cost. There was also a question about the CDL testing facility - it is in a different (though nearby) location, completely separate from the school, and they test for multiple training schools, so there's nothing shady going on there (amazing, right?).

We did our research before signing on with USA (which is why we didn't go with Schnieder, lol) and were expecting a delay of a week or two, which seems pretty typical - not a month or two! We also made sure to avoid getting locked into a lease contract, we knew that had bad news written all over it.

He is going to be talking to USA tomorrow about when he starts orientation. He is going to do everything in his power to get to orientation sooner rather than later. I was also slightly mistaken about the hold time after orientation - there is an option to stay at the orientation location (Van Buren AR) and get paid "in training" pay ($350/week), or you can go home and be with your family but you do not get paid during that option. So the biggest hurdle will be getting to orientation as soon as possible, and after that he will just stay there until a trainer is available. As long as he is getting paid, he can wait as long as necessary, but we can't wait forever without a paycheck coming.

We are really, really trying to fulfill the contract with USA if it is at all possible because with a year experience he will have many options open to him, and the income he can reasonably expect (which seems about the same as the very low end of what a solo expediter is averaging right now) will allow us to catch up on bills and straighten our credit out.

Someone mentioned team driving with the two of us - he keeps talking about it, but I'm in college. I left a fairly good paying job to return to school two years ago (before the economy fell apart) and I'm determined to finally get through with it as soon as possible. I'm in online classes for the next two quarters to free me up to work (if I can find a job) or to go with him once he gets passenger privileges, but starting fall quarter I have to take a chemistry series that requires actually being there, so I will not be able to be out on the road anymore.

VBobby - we live in Dayton, which I'm sure you're familiar with as one of the ghost towns being left behind by the automotive industry. Work is in high demand around here and finding something for a month (or even permanently) is just not going to happen. Ironically, I got laid off from pizza delivery in December and have not been able to find work since, even with 3 years delivery experience. I guess it's a sign of how bad the local economy is when even the pizza delivery people can't hold onto a job!

Yesteryear - you've nailed our potential plan on the head. We were a little weary of USA going into this (they were the only company hiring out of the 6 or 7 that normally hire through Driver Solutions) and now we are very weary. If he is put on hold for a month or more before orientation, and if he by some miracle finds a team to join into, he will be breaking the contract with USA and finding a way to pay back the $6k. At this point in time he would not have hauled a single load for USA, so would that mean he wouldn't get a negative DAC?

... I think I got everything. I don't have my husband on the phone right now so if he's got anything to add, I will post again.

**VBobby** · 03-02-2009, 07:43 PM

One thing you said concerns me. Did you say he got a CDL in a state that he doesn't live in? That doesn't seem right to me. If you lived in Georgia, as I do, then you would have to take the written and the driving test in Georgia, even if you schooled elsewhere.

Wow, layed off from pizza delivery. Now that's a bad economy. I'm laughing with you not at you. Heck, I'm feeling kinda lucky to be driving a school bus right now. (Talk about , high value, expedited freight at low pay.)

I have closed up my business and am trying to get back on the road. When I left my 'company driver' job there was a driver shortage. Now they are being very picky. I have been looking at expediting for a while but it doesn't look good to me right now.

The reason I am telling you all of this is because after school I drove otr a while and left. Now after being out for 7 months. most of the value of my experience is lost. It looks like I will have to take a 20 hour refresher course to get back into a 'company driver' job. That is why I am glad that you all see that it would be best to go ahead and get the year in to put the training cost obligation aside as well as to establish that golden '1 year otr experience' that opens up so many doors to better driving jobs.

I also think you are smart to stick to your plan of finishing school.

Good luck,

Bob

**Saturnista** · 03-02-2009, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by VBobby

One thing you said concerns me. Did you say he got a CDL in a state that he doesn't live in? That doesn't seem right to me. If you lived in Georgia, as I do, then you would have to take the written and the driving test in Georgia, even if you schooled elsewhere.

yes, I did say that. It's how this particular school always does it and since it is so close to the Ohio and Michigan borders (it's in Ft Wayne IN), there are a lot of out-of-state students at it. Apparently once you get your IN CDL, there is no issue in transferring it back to another state, or at least not to Ohio, Michigan or Illinois. You don't even have to take any additional testing. The only thing they have a problem with transferring is a Hazmat clearance - they said to wait to get that until the license is transferred back to the home state because you'd have to go through the whole process again.

Oh and I thought of an additional question that's kind of unrelated. Does anyone know how strict the requirements are or where I can find information about Hazmat endorsement? He needs to have it for USA and we're a little concerned because we know he's on the TSA watch list because of accidentally leaving a restricted item in our luggage going into an airport (I swear we dumped that bag upside down and shook it before packing, and nothing came out!). I'm hoping that something like that (the full report is given and the fact it is noted as a complete accident) coming up on the background check won't bar him from getting the endorsement but it's a worry for us. There's always the chance if he gets rejected for the endorsement that USA will fire him over it.

I know there are other forums we could be asking these kinds of things on, but you guys are way friendlier.

**ATeam** · 03-02-2009, 09:59 PM

Not to be unfriendly, but to be frank, you folks are too trusting. Trucking is a rough-and-tumble business that draws rough-and-tumble people who are not always the clearest thinkers when it comes to ethics and seeing how actions that make good sense to them may have negative consequences on others.

An example of this is the lopsided contract you entered into. Just because a company does something all the time, it does not make it right.

Swift got themselves into a heap of trouble in Tennessee, partly because of their driving school CDL residency practices. While they had been doing a number of things for years, one day, their CDL training and testing facilities were raided by a host of law enforcement agencies and later shut down. I don't know the details but I think I remember seeing non-Tennessee resident drivers have their CDLs come into question.

Stop trying to do things right and start trying to make sure other people and companies are doing things right before you commit to them. Having no money makes it tempting to reach out anyone offering you the possibility to make some.

Be careful. The trucking industry is full of people who are highly skilled at exploiting desperate people. You may see yourselves as trying to be good employees doing the honorable thing. They see people like that as suckers.

You might be surprised to learn that companies like USA Truck, Swift and a surprising number of others have driver turnover rates around 100% a year. Turnover rates like indicate zero concern for their drivers' well being.

You are very wise to try to protect your record and keep your DAC report clean. Just be sure to understand that the people you are dealing with could care less about the same.

About HAZMAT endorsement, I am surprised you have ask the question. Would not the driving school already provided training in it, or at least basic information? Anyway, everything your husband needs to know to pass the written HAZMAT test is included in the CDL manual your state will provide on request. Sample HAZMAT tests are available online. At the moment I am unable to provide a link.

Again, please understand that I am not being unfriendly. Just frank. We are rooting for you both.

**Saturnista** · 03-02-2009, 10:32 PM

I appreciate your up-front honesty. We are well aware of getting screwed but, we were stuck in a horrible position to start with and just basically went from one bad situation to another. We had heard many horrible things about Swift, CR England, Werner and Schneider, but only slightly horrible things about USA so to us it was a matter of the lesser evil. We knew going into it that USA has a near 100% turnover rate and he intends fully to leave immediately after his contract is fulfilled if he manages to hang on through it. They've just thrown us a loop we were not expecting - and that is the excessive down-time and delayed initial income.

You nailed it when you said having no money makes you reach for options you wouldn't normally take - that is exactly what position we were in. If we'd had the option, he'd have paid for his training himself and looked for a better company to take him on from the beginning. Trust me, we are regretting that this is the end it has come to and that it may be a year-long hell, but at the time, it was looking for any port in a storm. It's actually still rather like that - 3 months ago, a month delay in income would have been tolerable because I had income, but now, it's just another thing pulling us under and making us search for options.

Some of his classmates actually have temporary employment lined up during their hold period through friends or family that own trucks. Unfortunately my husband does not personally know anyone that he could get that arrangement with - it would be wonderful if he did!

As for the Hazmat, it's not the written test he's concerned with, it's the background check. While the school has been able to answer all his questions about the test itself, they haven't been able to give him an answer about his background situation. He's got no criminal background (he actually used to be a police officer in Tennessee, which is where the airport incident happened while he was still an officer) but he's really concerned about being on the watch list. He's flown since then with no issues, and I think he's worrying for no reason, but he's very concerned about it.

**XTeam** · 03-03-2009, 12:56 AM

Hi!
I have a some suggestions. Contact a few attorneys that deal with truckers. Consultations are free. You will get a better idea of your options are. I would recommend that you know exactly what your situation is with USA before you start any serious discusion with a recruiter or truck owner. Your situation will seem like extra baggage to them. Recruiters can be helpful but might steer you towards the truck owners that have problems keeping drivers. Then again, you might luck out and find a good owner that will give a newbee a chance. With experience, you will have a much better chance in finding a good truck owner. Driving experience can be three months. The experience needed is mainly the procedures involved in expedite trucking and a positive understanding and adjustment to the expedite lifestyle. And, the best arrangement is a team from the same household to pool the money, especially in this financial climate. As mentioned in another post, check the classified ads for driving opportunities. Good luck! Linda

**ATeam** · 03-03-2009, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Saturnista

We had heard many horrible things about Swift, CR England, Werner and Schneider, but only slightly horrible things about USA so to us it was a matter of the lesser evil.

It's a moot point now since Schneider is not taking in newbies these days, but I would not be quick to dismiss them. When Diane and I were new, and before we discovered expediting, we researched companies and concluded that Schneider would have been a good company to start with, had we gone the big-rig route.

Having since met a number of Schneider drivers on the road and seeing them drive as we share the road with them, we continue to believe Schneider is a good company.

For most any trucking company, you will hear bad and good as you talk to people. It is a special challenge for newbies to make sense of it all as they wade through trucking industry information, all of which is new to them. When you are coming into trucking cold, it is hard to know who the good guys and bad guys are. Lacking perspective, it is hard to know what is important and what is not.

Experienced truckers often forget what it was like to not know what you know now. I remember reading about loads people hauled but not having a clue about what the freight looked like. Having never consciously seen freight on a truck before, it was difficult to imagine what people were talking about. The first real freight I ever saw was the first load we hauled. I was thrilled because, finally, the unknown became known. Not only could I see the freight, I could touch it too! What a treat!

These days, if I saw somene happy to see and touch freight for the first time, I would resist the temptation to laugh out loud or put that rookie down. But it would still be a funny sight.

The good news is the two of you are at the point where the clouds will begin to clear. Now that your husband has his CDL (congratulations, by the way!), the mysteries of driving a truck are mysteries no more. He knows he can do it. There is of course more to learn on the road, but if someone says "bump the dock" or "S-cam" he will have more than a vague notion of what that means.

Especially important is that he has classmates to talk to and seems to be doing so. Drivers mix, mingle and compare notes all the time in the trucking industry. Your sense of the world you are now part of will quickly grow as you visit with others who also drive trucks.

This is the point where someone is likely to jump in and talk about the value of experience. That is not wrong but I would add that not every experienced driver is a successful driver or even a good one. Listen to everyone, but pay special attention to those who are making trucking work for them.

Your husband' desire to get into expediting is understandable. The emphasis on safety, the interesting freight, the freedom to choose your loads ... it's all here. Good people too!

You have expressed no interest in driving a truck yourself. Know that if the bug ever bites, you and your husband together will become one of the most desirable and marketable quantities in the expedite marketplace; a husband-wife driving team.

Again, we are rooting for you. Keep leaning into it like you have. While you got off to a rocky start, you are doing a good job figuring it out.

**Yesteryear** · 03-03-2009, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by ATeam

Not to be unfriendly, but to be frank, you folks are too trusting. Trucking is a rough-and-tumble business that draws rough-and-tumble people who are not always the clearest thinkers when it comes to ethics and seeing how actions that make good sense to them may have negative consequences on others.

An example of this is the lopsided contract you entered into. Just because a company does something all the time, it does not make it right.

Swift got themselves into a heap of trouble in Tennessee, partly because of their driving school CDL residency practices. While they had been doing a number of things for years, one day, their CDL training and testing facilities were raided by a host of law enforcement agencies and later shut down. I don't know the details but I think I remember seeing non-Tennessee resident drivers have their CDLs come into question.

Stop trying to do things right and start trying to make sure other people and companies are doing things right before you commit to them. Having no money makes it tempting to reach out anyone offering you the possibility to make some.

Be careful. The trucking industry is full of people who are highly skilled at exploiting desperate people. You may see yourselves as trying to be good employees doing the honorable thing. They see people like that as suckers.

You might be surprised to learn that companies like USA Truck, Swift and a surprising number of others have driver turnover rates around 100% a year. Turnover rates like indicate zero concern for their drivers' well being.

You are very wise to try to protect your record and keep your DAC report clean. Just be sure to understand that the people you are dealing with could care less about the same.

About HAZMAT endorsement, I am surprised you have ask the question. Would not the driving school already provided training in it, or at least basic information? Anyway, everything your husband needs to know to pass the written HAZMAT test is included in the CDL manual your state will provide on request. Sample HAZMAT tests are available online. At the moment I am unable to provide a link.

Again, please understand that I am not being unfriendly. Just frank. We are rooting for you both.

Not only did the Swift school graduates from the TN driving schools cdls's come into question but some (if not all, I can only speak for one I know) where sent letters stating their cdls were invalid and they would have to retest.